This may have been posted before but this is an idea that I was thinking about recently -
Revenge is a key element of the Odyssey. Poseidon takes revenge upon Odysseus for an extended period of time. Odysseus, himself, takes revenge upon the suitors when he returns home. To what extent is this revenge justified, when should one stop exercising revenge, and what significance to the meaning of the story does this imply?
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Revenge in the Odyssey plays a major part in Odysseus's journey home and how Odysseus handles himself once he reaches Ithaca. Homer justifies revenge in the sense that if one is entitled to it, he or she may seek it. For example, when Poseidon hears that Odysseus blinded his beloved Cyclops son Polyphemus, Poseidon makes it his goal to prolong Odysseus's journey home and then bring him suffering once he reaches Ithaca. For many years, Poseidon succeeded in his goal. Odysseus had been stuck on Calypso's island and Poseidon brought Odysseus large storm waves to keep his ship ride home long and unsuccessful. However, after many years of Poseidon successfully keeping Odysseus away from his homeland, the divine gods started to feel that Odysseus had paid his dues and should be released back to his family and followers in Ithaca. After hearing this, Poseidon should have let Odysseus go home safely, but he refused and continued to make Odysseus's voyage nearly impossible. I think that Poseidon was right to keep Odysseus stranded from his home because he has the right to be upset with the man who blinded his son. Poseidon should have taken the hint from the gods that it was time to let Odysseus leave after being stranded for ten long years. The significance this revenge story has on the overall story of the Odyssey, is that If Poseidon had let Odysseus go when the gods thought it was time, Odysseus would have been able to reunite and give hope to his long-lost son, Telemachus, and stop the suitors earlier, therefore reclaiming his wife and palace ten years early. If Odysseus had been released at the time the other gods wanted, Odysseus would have never met the Phaeacians that were loved and given great sailing weather by Poseidon. Since the Phaeacians helped Odysseus, Poseidon brought awful storm weather for sailing and he began to hate the Phaeacians. This would have never happened if Odysseus was released on time. Overall, Poseidon had the right to seek revenge against Odysseus, however he should have stopped exercising the revenge against him once the other gods thought it was time to let Odysseus go.
ReplyDeleteObviously, revenge plays a major role in Odysseus’ return to Ithica because it ultimately affects the lives of all the suitors and maids that were victims of his vengeance. Homer portrays his idea of revenge that it is perfectly justified and that anyone has the right to seek it because they are entitled to it. The character of Odysseus shows a clear example of this when he finally returns to Ithica. Ever since the beginning of the story, the suitors have been a major issue that Telemachus, Odysseus, and Penelope were forced to deal with. Finally when Odysseus returns, he has several options that he could have taken other then killing all of the suitors but he decides to take retribution on them. I believe that Odysseus’ revenge is somewhat justified because the suitors deserve it after how they treated his entire family. Still, killing off every single suitor was a bit excessive especially when there were other better options available. Odysseus could have created some sort of jail that he could have put them into. Overall, Odysseus did have the right to take revenge on the suitors but should have chosen a more effective option in taking retribution.
ReplyDeleteRevenge is definitely a key element in the Odyssey. Like the given examples, Poseidon gets a very prolonged revenge on Odysseus, and later Odysseys towards the suitors in his home. I have found, much as we have discussed in the Carter class, that Homer portrays revenge as sometimes being accepted and in many instances, revenge is something that characters are "entitled" to. In the above examples, such as Poseidon taking his revenge for what Odysseus did to his son, the cyclops, Poseidon gets his revenge by keeping Odysseus away for many years and making his journey miserable. In this way, he succeeds in getting his "deserved" revenge. Because he was wronged, he has the right to seek revenge. That is the way many of the stories in the Odyssey read. To make a reference to an old cliché, it is much like, "an eye for an eye". If one person wrongs another, then it is accepted, and often encouraged (in the case of Odysseus going after the suitors), to seek revenge.
ReplyDeleteA perfect example of this is when Odysseus goes to the House of the Dead. Whilst there, he talks to Agamemnon and we recall the story of how he died. Getting back to revenge, this is how and why Agamemnon is killed. Teaming up with her lover, his wife kills Agamemnon to "get back at him" for offering up her daughter as a war sacrifice. This is an example of seeking revenge. Another common theme we see is avenging, both in the beginning of the book and in the instance with Polymepheus and Poseidon. This is represented as being ok and justified.
To answer the specific question of, "to what extent is this revenge justified", has to do a lot with the aspect of loyalty. If you are avenging someone, it is because they were not loyal to you and committed some crime to someone close to you. By doing this, they break your trust, overstep a boundary, and revenge is sought. When Odysseus goes back to kill the suitors, he kills everyone in the house while he was absent, that was disloyal to him when he was king, or the beggar. He kills those who had shown him bad hospitality and spears those who he tests and reveals as loyal such as the cowherd and the swineherd.
Usually, revenge goes to the point of death, or immense pain/suffering. There really is no right answer for when you should stop getting revenge. In Odysseus' case, his revenge is finished when he slaughters the suitors in the halls of his own home, with the help of Athena, Telemachus, and others. With Poseidon, his revenge never really officially ends; it just becomes impossible once Odysseus reaches land. Poseidon never really "gets over", or intentionally stops obstructing Odysseus from getting home and causing him immense amounts of suffering and grieving.
All of this implies to the meaning of the story, that retribution, revenge, and retaliation are accepted and in many circumstances, characters are entitled to it. This tells us that in Homer's time period, revenge and all of those things above were most likely widely accepted if you were dishonored or betrayed (not shown loyalty). The crux of the story is woven around that idea that Odysseus is not getting home because of Poseidon getting revenge and that once he does get home, his own sole purpose first and foremost is to get revenge; this idea being a main theme throughout the Odyssey.
Without revenge, the Odyssey could not exist. It drives the story forward. Roughly half the Odyssey is driven by Poseidon's revenge, and the other half is driven by Odysseus's. Poseidon's revenge i feel was justified to an extent. It was of course Odysseus who blinded Poseidon's son, so Poseidon should be justified to take action. However, I think that interfering with and messing up his life for several years is a bit overboard for just blinding his son. Poseidon should have taken some revenge, but I think that he shouldn't have taken it as far as he did.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus on the other hand I think completely had the right to take revenge. The suitors had completely betrayed him, their king, and basically stolen from him for many, many years. They stole from him, didn't care, and were highly immoral. I think disloyalty, consistent immorality, and blatant theft are grounds to kill them.
I agree with Josh. Without revenge in the Odyssey, there is no story. Poseidon holds a huge grudge on Odysseus, which sends Odysseus on all of his journeys and adventures throughout the epic. Poseidon did go a little overboard, but wouldn't you do the same had your son been blinded by someone, especially your youngest son. Poseidon was just acting like an angry father, not thinking about what he is doing and wanting to punish the person that blinded his kid. I also agree with Josh that Odysseus had the right to kill the suitors. They were disloyal to him. They were also hipocrits. When they saw Odysseus, in begger form, they said that he was their to get free meals and a roof over his head. Were the suitors not their to get the same thing, to take Odysseus's household. Were they not eating all his food, sleeping in his house. He had the right for revenge.
ReplyDeleteAs all of the other comments have read, revenge is a major part of the epic. Without revenge the story wouldn’t have taken place. The whole plot is based off of different people taking revenge on one another. Poseidon taking revenge on Odysseus, Odysseus taking revenge on the suitors and maids, Poseidon taking revenge on the Phaecians. Without all of the revenge Odysseus would have had a nice quick journey home, The suitors and unfaithful maids would still be alive, and the Phaecians would still have a boat and their port would be open. Homer clearly shows that the Greeks in the dark ages believed that revenge was completely justified. We have no way to know though, how justifiable were those actions taken in the epic. It is possible that the Greeks would have thought that because of the wrong doings, those actions of revenge were completely justifiable. On the other hand, it is a story, and the Greeks could have thought the same thing as us, that those actions of revenge were not completely justifiable.
ReplyDeleteRevenge is something that Homer describes as acceptable and normal. In modern society revenge is widely frowned upon. But, in the world of Homer, revenge was a part of everyday life. Revenge can be very satisfying and it appears many times in the Odyssey. When Odysseus blinds the cyclops, Poseidon has the right to be angry. It seems appropriate that Poseidon should give Odysseus some trouble getting home, which is exactly what he does. Poseidon gets revenge on Odysseus by making his journey home very difficult. Although it was somewhat appropriate, Poseidon took it too far. Keeping Odysseus from his family and his home for so many years was very harsh in my opinion. Poseidon should have stopped creating obstacles for Odysseus sooner and he should not have taken it so far. If revenge should happen at all it should be similar to the modern justice system. The punishment should fit the crime. In other words "an eye for an eye".
ReplyDeleteRevenge is acceptable so long as there was wrong done. Odysseus receives much punishment in the form of revenge for the many acts he commits that Poseidon dislikes, such as blinding Polythemus. It also seems that Odysseus is punished for the acts his men commit, such as not offering proper sacrifices and for harming Apollo's flocks. Odysseus is punished as his men are taken away from him and he and his men wander aimlessly through the ocean, searching helplessly for land and finding trial after trial. Homer's take on revenge seems to be that so long as there was foul done, one may take as harsh a revenge as one sees fit.
ReplyDeleteI think revenge has a great significance to the meaning of the story. It is the obstacle in Odysseus’s journey at first, as well as a way to overcome the obstacles. In order to make this more understandable, Poseidon’s revenge on Odysseus, only serves as an obstacle for Odysseus. However, because the suitors are one of the obstacles in Odysseus’s reunion with Penelope, revenge on the suitors by killing them is a way to overcome the obstacle. I think revenge is justified as long as it’s not worse than the actual act that has been committed, which calls for revenge. If any of you recall, in the Code of Hammurabi, it said that the punishment for wrongful doing has to be as bad but any worse. “An arm for an arm, a foot for a foot, an ear for an ear”. Poseidon’s revenge on Odysseus’s seemed fair at first. However, in my opinion, he went over the limit. In terms of Odysseus’s revenge on the suitors, I don’t think it’s justified for him to kill all the suitors. The reason for that is because the suitors are no longer represented as a whole, and not of them are pleaded guilty. In Book 16, during my discussion, I pointed out that now we get a look at some of the suitors individually. The three main ones are Antinous, Amphinomus, and Eurymachus. Antinous and Eurymachus are the evil ones, while Amphinomus is the one who suggests getting the Gods’ approval to kill Telemachus and Odysseus. Therefore, Odysseus’s revenge on the wicked suitors such as Antinous and Eurymachus is justified. Amphimous, however should be spared because of his awareness of some sense of morality.
ReplyDeleteAs previously stated, revenge is one of the themes that drives the Odyssey. It is what leads Poseidon to hinder Odysseus’s journey, Zeus to destroy Odysseus’ ship because they ate Helios’ cattle, and Odysseus’ basis for slaughtering all the suitors. I think revenge in the Odyssey is portrayed as being normal for someone in Mycenaean Greece to take. In this sense I think revenge was as much part of a culture as the justice system is for us today. The only problem with Mycenaean revenge is that the being who is taking revenge on another is the victim, judge, and punisher. I think that this in itself would be fine if and only if the victim was impartial to judge the crime, but since no one can be impartial about something that is personal to them the whole system of revenge falls apart because more likely than not the punishments do not fit the crimes. In Odysseus’s case he slaughters all the suitors as a way to take revenge instead of taking into account the individual crimes they have committed. He feels personally victim to the suitors courting his wife, attempting to kill his son, and consuming his wealth. This reaction would be normal in the circumstances, but Odysseus takes revenge into his own hands. Instead of seeing who is guilty of a specific crime, Odysseus sees the suitors as a criminal mass of people and gives all of them the same punishment. His doing so is completely unfair to the suitors that are only guilty of more minor crimes like consuming Odysseus’s wealth. There punishment should be to pay Odysseus back all they took, but instead they are condemned to death by Odysseus’ blind rage. I think that instead of administering retribution equal or worse than the original crime is wrong because then the person seeking revenge is no better than the original sinner. I have to admit that I have not finished the book yet, but personally I think that if Odysseus feels his actions towards the suitors is fair, then it is fair for their families to avenge the suitor’s deaths. When this happens, Odysseus’ family should be obligated to kill the suitor’s families, and so on… But if everyone thinks of retribution as an “eye for an eye” the whole world would go blind. Therefore, I think revenge should not be as harsh as the original crime, or administered by a 3rd party.
ReplyDeleteRevenge in the epic alters the lenght of Odysseus' journey home and who dies. Poseidon stalks Odysseus journey home as a consequence of Polyphemus and Odysseus encounter. In Odysseus revenge he kills the suitors for their unloyal, heinous actions.
ReplyDeleteThe revenge in the epic is sometimes justified and sometimes not.The revenge is justifiable when it is quick and easy, not continuess and over the top.
When Odysseus reeks revenge on the suitors that is justifiable. The suitors have been in his home destroying the decoration, indulging in his food, and trying to court his wife who doesnt want to be courted. The suitors disrespecting his wife, son, and home is worthy of earning Odysseus revenge.
Some revenge in the book is unneccassary.Poseidon keeps his revenge on Odysseus becuase he can, not because its needed. Poseidon's extensive urge to mess with Odysseus is not called for. One act of revenge is enough. The sea god's will to reek havoc on Odysseus is over exaggerated. If he would of left it at one act of revenge then it would be considered justifiable but Poseidon takes it too far.
Revenge should be stopped once the victim of it has learned their lesson. Theres no point in dragging it out just for the fun of it. Revenge for certain things starts off as justifiable but if the grudge is held too long, the revenge can be considered unjustifiable.
Revenge in the Odyssey is a very frequent thing that consistently pops up as one of the motivations for a character. Characters such as Telemachus, Odysseus, and even the god Poseidon have been motivated with the full intent on avenging someone or something. Revenge has even dictated and ruled the lives of many in the Odyssey, such as Agamemnon. Additionally, while revenge is powerful motivation, characters in the Odyssey seem to know when enough is enough, and when they should stop just trying to avenge something.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of Revenge motivating characters, we have three fine examples. First and foremost, Poseidon wished to avenge his son, Polyphenous, because Odysseus had blinded Polyphenous [allegedly in self-defense]. Thus, Poseidon attempted to do justice, and attempted to stop Odysseus from getting home to the love of his life, Penelope. Odysseus becomes motivated by revenge in the odyssey when he attacks the suitors who are trying to marry Penelope. Because the suitors had come into his home and taken up residence there, Odysseus considered killing said suitors a virtuous act. Lastly, near the end of the odyssey, the family members of the suitors that Odysseus had killed confront him. Luckily, the God Athena, who orders everyone to just let their need for vengeance go, ends up saving Odysseus from the mob.
All of these situations revolving revenge can tell us aspects of revenge. The situation for Poseidon, for example, shows the readers that if someone wrongs a family member, then the rest of the family will pursue revenge for the hurt. The battle with the suitors (which Odysseus led) allows us to infer that interfering with another man’s estate, wife, and assets are grounds for revenge. Finally, the situation with Odysseus and the angry mob of the suitors’ relatives shows us that vengeance will continue to go on, and that it will never stop. Additionally, that specific situation shows that only a higher power (such as a god) can stop the pursuit of vengeance. Finally, I’d like to raise the point that in each of these situations, once the revenge is enacted, regardless of the success of said revenge, the party seeking vengeance does not seek further justice.