Throughout the Odyssey we've seen many sticky situations, which most of the characters get themselves in and out of by on lying, scheming and or not trusting those around them. Penelope and the suitors: “Young men, my suitors, now that King Odysseus is no more, go slowly, keen as you are to marry me, until I can finish off this web…” “So by day she’d weave at her great and growing web—by night, by the light of her torches set beside her, she would unravel all she’d done.”(96) Odysseus and his men: “He gave me a sack, the skin of a full-grown ox, and binding inside the winds that howl from every quarter,” Jealousy and envy overcome Odysseus’s crew, who do not know what is in the sack. “Hurry, let’s see what loot is in that sack, how much gold and silver. Break it open—now!”(231-232). Many more trust issues are seen between Odysseus’s and his men and much plotting and scheming is seen back at Ithaca between Penelope and the suitors, and the suitors, Telemachus and now Odysseus. What relevance does lying, plotting and trust have to do with the book as a whole? What examples prove that these themes make up the entire book? What does lying, plotting and trust tell us about the characters and the Greek society?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Lying, Plotting and trust?
ReplyDeleteI think one constant theme having to do with those three things in the story is that trust is relative. Additionally, Telemachus' predicament with his father and mother shows us that plotting for revenge is the likely outcome if someone has wronged you. Lying seems to also be a common thing in this story; people lie to get their way, people lie in order to convince others of things.
I'd like to go back to the predicament with Telemachus now. Telemachus, as you all probably know, is the son of Agamemnon, a soldier who went off to fight in the Trojan war [ three guesses where the Trojan war happened...]. When Agamemnon left, he trusted his wife to not cheat on him.
By the time Agamemnon had returned from war, many years later, he found that his wife had been cheating on him with another person. Agamemnon was then killed by his wife. Plotting for his father's revenge, Telemachus then killed his mother and her new spouse.
Quite the drama if you ask me.
To be blunt, The Story of Agamemnon being betrayed by his wife directly plays into the whole "trust and lying" part of Nya's post. Telemachus's revenge also plays into the "plotting" part of the post. From the character's actions in the Odyssey, It's safe to say that lying, manipulating, trust, revenge, plotting, and vengeance were all part of Greek society.
Another possibility was that Homer had something against the Greeks, and when writing the Odyssey, he put some Greek stereotypes into the book.
:D
Excuse me thats SO wrong. Telemachus is NOT the son of Agamemnon! He is the son of Odysseus....do your reading!! I believe that trust in general is a major issue between many characters throughout the book. The example that Nick was attempting to give was that of Orestes, who was Agamemnon's son. This is a very strong example, but only slightly plays into trust, distrust, scheming, and lying. The Agamemnon story does show us that when coming home being cautious is called for. Which leads us to Odysseus's return home, in the form of a beggar. This is indeed an issue of trust on Odysseus and Athena's part. They fear that if anyone recognizes that it is there will be major uproar and Odysseus will NOT be able to go along with his plot to kill the suitors. All this is one big event mixed in scheming and distrust.
ReplyDeleteSorry Nick, I will have to make a contradiction. Telemachus is the son of Odysseus, not Agamemnon, and he does not have any problems with his family besides the fact that suitors are trying to win his mother. I think you are referring to Aegisthus, who is not Agamemnon's son but his murderer. It was Orestes, who is his son, killed Aegisthus. I just want to point that out. Back to Nya's original question, there are indeed many parts in the Odyssey where people use lies and deceit to get what they want. Nick's slightly mixed-up story is a good example. Aegisthus and Agamemnon's wife used deceit to kill him. Most of the time, deceit is used in a wrongful way. There are examples, however, where deceit was used in a way that could benefit others. Penelope, Odysseus' wife, is a prime example. To avoid marrying the suitors, who are evil people who have taken over Ithica, she tricks them into believing that she will marry them when she's done with the tapestry. As we all know, her real intentions is to prolong the wedding as much as possible. Deceit goes either way in this book.
ReplyDeleteIn the Odyssey, lying and trust are major elements of the plot. Odysseus has a trust issue, and cannot seem to rely on anyone, as he cannot trust that people will not betray him. For example he never trusts his crew. Even after his crew makes an oath that they will not even have ideas of touching the cattle of the sun, he would not have fallen asleep until they left the island for fear of betrayal. However, his crew lies and do not keep the oath, so Odysseus’s fear of his crew being disloyal was rightfully thought. Homer was possibly trying to say, that Greeks were hard to trust, and some should not be trusted. Especially because the crew was perfidious too much than any crew should be. Also, even though everyone trusts Odysseus and no one questions him and his honesty, he lies all the time but no one can tell. For example, his royal swineherd believes every word of his story about whom he was growing up and where and how he was raised. Because Odysseus is a trickster and is very cunning, he could be lying about the whole story to everyone. If he lies once it is most likely that he lied previously and will lie again. So he does not trust his crew or anyone in his life, but his crew and people should not return the trust. Without the lying and scheming behind people’s backs, the book would not have the same impact and meaning, because then there would be no tricksters manipulating the characters and causing Odysseus to go astray on his journey home from Ithaca.
ReplyDeleteXD
ReplyDeleteAww man, I mind farted when I said that Telemachus was the son of Agamemnon... I meant Orestes...
Lizzie, you have a good point on how Odysseus cannot seem to place his trust in those around him. However, did he really start off that way? Since the Plot of the Odyssey is not chronological, we wouldn't be able to see Odysseus's growth or personal development that well.
Lizzie is also correct in the light that Odysseus's crew does not trust him, [the mutinous scalywags that they are].
Another factor to average in to Odysseus's schemes, is that he doesn't really seem that bothered by casualties. Could it be that because of the loss of trust, that Odysseus has resorted to not caring about his crew as much anymore?..
[At 130 words, this is considered part II of my above post.]
The Odyssey acts as a reflection of Greek values, when it portrays trust as an unimportant value, and trickery as a skill. Odysseus, Athena, and other gods all disguise themselves as others to relate messages, test the charecters of others, or find things out. These disguises are in reality a form of disception, and lying. However, they aren't treated negatively but as a regular, expected occurence. For instance all Greecians are prepared to recieve important visitors in disguise. They treat all guests as if they were gods, because gods often appear on the doorsteps of unexpecting homes testing the reactions of the inhabitants, and punishing or rewarding their actions.
ReplyDeleteLying and trust are two major themes in the Odyssey. As Lizzie previously said, the use of trust is not present in the relationship between Odysseus and his crew. Odysseus does not trust his crew to listen to commands, and on countless occasions, the crew goes against him. One of which concerns the sun cattle, when the crew made an oath not to harm them. yet they did anyways - betraying the trust he put into them.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, Odysseus is known for his lying and trickery in the epic as well. When Odysseus was traveling home, he was forced to stop at several areas. One example comes from his visit to the Phaeacians. Odysseus does not reveal his true self at first, he schemes up a whole separate identity and story in order to protect his identity.
Athena uses lying and trickery to get her way as well. When she goes to visit Telemachus, she comes in disguise. This is most likely in order to test Telemachus' hospitality, which is essentially an indication of character.
This indicates that in Greek society, lying and trickery are components which one needs to advance themselves. Sly Odysseus and Athena use them in order to get where they want to be. However, they can also be a bad thing, as exhibited by the crew members. Their mutiny and untrustworthiness resulted in punishment as a whole.
in the Odyssey, pretty much every main character has lied or tricked someone to get what they want. also as sonia said above, there is an obvious lack of trust, especially with Telemachus and Odysseus. I believe that everyone tricks everyone and therefor no one has trust in anyone.
ReplyDeletePenelope tricks the suitors in chapter 19 so she wont have to marry any of them and Odysseus as well as other characters are constantly dressing up, or more accurately, dressing down, so they can get guest gifts from their hosts.
also, while on the idea of trickery and getting what one wants through disguise or manipulation, this also shows alot about the greek culture. they are very materialistic because they only what the gifts and or whatever they are looking for and they dont care how they get it.
going off on a bit of a tangent here...
as well, perhaps the characters dress up like poor people now only so they can recieve gifts from those who are generous, but because only the poor have trust in others. and welcome anyone into their home thinking they might be a god who will then benefit them.
why is it that trickery must be used to get what one wants?
are there other reasons for the mal-trust?
We see instances of plotting throughout the Odyssey. Many of these acts are committed by Odysseus, who we can all agree is clever and cunning. The main example of this is when Odysseus and his son Telemachus plan to kill the suitors. They devise a plan that will have them cornered and without a chance. Odysseus tells his son to place the suitors weapons away in a storeroom and tell the suitors that he has done so to prevent any further damage. Telemachus slaughters most of the suitors with the cover of night. The next morning, Odysseus and Telemachus finish off the remaining few suitors. This clever plan allows for the “easy” removal of the suitors with no harm to Odysseus or Telemachus.
ReplyDeleteTrust another one of the fundamental aspects of the story. Without it, the Polynesians would have not believed any of Odysseus's story. The suitors would've doubted Odysseus's and Telemachus's actions when they locked away their weapons before the slaughter. On the contrary, if everyone trusted each other, the story would still take a different plot line. A suitor could have dressed up as Odysseus and convince Penelope that he was her husband. But both exist trust and distrust exist in the Odyssey as they also do in Greek society. Trust plays a major role in plotting against someone. As said before, without trust, the plot against the suitors would have been a failure. This shows that Greek society was similar in the society of today, one that it puts a lot of trust into other people with the belief that one should not betray another. Wouldn't you trust someone you had known well for 20 years as the suitors did to Telemachus? It's hard to answer no.
Throughout the Odyessy trickery and deceptfulness has been portrayed. Even though to many of us are acts that are looked down upon in many of the cases in the Odyessy is somewhat necessary and beneficial to certain characters. For instance Odyseeus used disguises and various other methods of deceptfulness to get the things he needed or in some cases save the life of himself or others. In another case Penelope the faithful wife of Odyseeus tricks the suitors by saying that she will marry one of them when she is done weaving a shroud which she faithfully unweaves all of her progess at night so that she will never make any progress.
ReplyDeleteAlso lying and disguise are essential elements in how the book will ultimately unfold in that as we have learned Odysseus as disguised as a old beggar had to decieve his own wife to keep himself secret and in the grand sceme of things ready himself for the slaughter of the suitors.
Honestly, I think that a lot of people throughout this book choose to lie or trick if it gets them closer to their destination. Lying or trickery is almost used as a security; when you think that you cannot achieve what you want with physical force or the truth, many people in this book tend to find another way through trickery and scheming. Not that it is remotely the right thing to do, but very popular in this book. But maybe sometimes trickery is needed. I am not sure that this can be valid but think about this. If Odysseus came home as himself, and was forced to fight the suitors alone or only with Telemachus he would not have time to make a plan or find out who is truly innocent and who is guilty. The suitors were not nice people, and trickery seemed like the only option to do what Odysseus thought was told was needed. Odysseus was even persauded by a goddess, Athena, to take part in tricking the people and disguising his true identity. Maybe they didn't go about it the right way, but clearly there was a purpose for what he did and he didnt choose trickery out of selfishness or deviousness, he did it because he thought that was the only way to take back his land and his family. Clearly the book has an influence on greek life by involving not only a king, but gods, and all people into the idea of trickery.
ReplyDeleteTrust plays a big role in the Odyssey. Amongst so many circumstances of disguise and manipulation, finding people to trust and rely on, confide in, and deem loyal, is a difficult task, especially for our main character Odysseus. When he gets back to Ithaca, he goes to the swineherd, and later on deems him and the cowherd as loyal and trustworthy. Because of that, he confides in them, about his true identity and plot to kill the suitors. So often in the book do we see people pretending to be things that they aren't, often through disguises, for example, when Athena first visits Telemachus, and when Odysseus is disguised as the beggar.
ReplyDeleteOn the flip-side of that, you find the common theme of lying. This appears very often. For example, when Athena appears to Odysseus when he first arrives in Ithaca, he lies about who he is. Lying signifies unsureness, or not trusting someone. When characters don't reveal their true identity but instead chose to lie about who they are, they are usually hiding something and don't want to confide in people for fear of disloyalty. Because there is so much manipulation and trickery flying around in The Odyssey, who to trust becomes and issue, especially for Odysseus trying to seek his way home back to Ithaca. He cannot trust his own crew, first and foremost which serves him a great problem, especially when they let loose the bag of winds.
This issue of trust, or lack-there-of, seems to sort of scoot the story along. Odysseus can't trust his crew, so he gets blown off course. He cannot trust them again when they are on the island of Helios and they eat the cattle. Because of this, he gets washed up with Calypso. She wants him for herself and doesn't trust that he will stay with her if she sets him free, so he holds her captive. Hermes doesn't trust that Calypso isn't holding Odysseus captive, so with the help of other gods, Odysseus gets off the island. When Poseidon gets angry when Odysseus is on his raft sailing from Calypso, he falls into the water and is holding on to a piece of his boat. He has trouble trusting the nymph/goddess who offers him the scarf and help, and lies to Naucissa about who he is. When he is in the House of Death, he learns from Agamemnon, not to trust his wife/women in general. If you keep following this theme, Lying and Trust serve as the issues in the story that make the whole tale go round. "If" Odysseus and his crew would have communicated, etc. then maybe the story of Great Odysseus would have ended in a different place. Lying, trickery, trust, and craft, are things we often see in the Odyssey that build the structure for the story itself, and weave a tangled mess for the characters involved.
There is so much trickery in the Odyssey that trust is hard to find. People are constantly deceiving and tricking others and because of this no one can be trusted. There is a lack of trust between Odysseus and his crew and Odysseus and Telemachus. Odysseus is known as "the great trickster" and this is seen as a good characteristic. Even though it is seen as a good thing, no one can truly trust him because of it. Also, after Odysseus' crew eats the cattle of the sun, Odysseus cannot trust them again even though they promise not to do it again.
ReplyDeleteBack in the time of Odysseus, I would say that there was a pretty big deficit of trust. It would make sense, considering all the back-stabbing and lying people that existed. The world was a much more hostile place considering that every man was expected to be a killing machine if need be. I would think that wariness is the only thing that can keep a man alive. If you think about it, would you have stayed away from Odysseus's property if you thought he was dead? It was every man for himself. Also, the societies were broken up into small tribes. You only had an obligation to your own tribe. The Trojan war was one giant tribal war that took place because the Trojan prince Paris did not care about wife-snatching Helen and running away. After all, they weren't one of his tribe. I would not imagine that anyone had any obligations to strange people, only family and community. Now, take the ancient Greek trust structure and apply it today. Is really any different? The communities have grown larger, laws have been put in place, and men are generally no longer killing machines. Grand wars solely fought for plunder have not been fought in a while. At the same time, lying, stealing, and trickery are all still part of our lives. Instead of individuals using trickery for themselves, large groups of people now use deceit to get what they want. Look at Bernie Madoff. People trusted him and he ended up stealing their money. I would think that trickery is related to the Odyssey primarily because it is in human nature to do such actions. That is why Odysseus's motto of trust no one would have worked well back then as well as today.
ReplyDelete