Thursday, February 26, 2009

Odysseus as leader

Is Odysseus a good leader who is just cursed by the gods, or is he a bad leader who causes his own problems and the loss of his crew? Explain, using examples from the text to support your answer.
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45 comments:

  1. Ben AustinFebruary 26, 2009 at 8:50 AM

    Odysseus is a man whom can be in both the above situations. Odysseus is always getting in his own way. For example during his trip home and the multiple misfortunes are caused by his little side trips. Though he is cursed because him and Poseidon both have a beef. Also he has problems with his crew. The crews discipline comes into question twice when they open the bag of wind and when they kill the cattle of the sun. So his crew is not disciplined, but you could cause that problem with a ten-year war that causes pain and emotional suffering. Though it mutinous behavior is a deterrent to Odysseus’s travel home. He cannot have the problems that they are causing. Though Odysseus’s little side trips cause him delays and have no cause except to brag about his Excellency at Troy, and we do not even know if that story is true. Though he has had problems with the sirens, and the crew and the gods, he has pushed through it and made it back to Ithaca. But his trip took twenty years I think it took a long time to get to troy but not ten years. I think that he causes his own delay he spends so much time at the little places on his wa home.

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  2. Kirsty CFebruary 26, 2009 at 5:30 PM

    This question can very easily be interpreted as the question of free will; a question that has arisen many a time in Griffin humanities. Personally, I believe that it is a mixture of both examples. Odysseus causes the gods to bring misfortune upon himself; a quote from Zeus clearly illustrates this "the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share." It is no secret that Poseidon is a major hazard in Odysseus' journey home, (29% of year 9 humanities believe he is the biggest hazard), but Poseidon is only angry with Odysseus because he blinded his only son, Cyclops. So true to Zeus' words: "but they themselves, with their own reckless ways" Odysseus' reckless ways caused pain upon himself; his actions made the gods interfere. This example is similar to the adam and eve story we read in the beginning of the school year; God banishes Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden because they made the choice to disobey; they brought pain upon themselves and God just punished them.

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  3. Molly LiebeskindFebruary 26, 2009 at 7:14 PM

    Although Odysseus may appear to be cursed by the Gods, as was discussed in the topic, “Whose fault is it anyway?” the Gods cannot always be blamed for a person’s problems. This means that although Odysseus is cursed by the Gods it is his own fault. For example, in the beginning of the book and the beginning of his journey, Odysseus was just a regular king with no excessive problems. However after fighting in Troy Odysseus made some decisions that the Gods did not like. A good example of this was when Odysseus was stuck in the Cyclops’s home. Although Odysseus was not doing anything terribly wrong to the Gods at that point he did find himself in a tough position. Through his wisdom and trickery, Odysseus was very smart in finding a way out. After stabbing the Cyclops in the eye and therefore blinding him he hid in the sheep in order to get out. After the Cyclops took the sheep on their usual walk outside and the men escaped Odysseus become very ignorant. Although he would have had the perfect escape route and plan, Odysseus had to brag and taunt the Cyclops after. While leaving Odysseus yelled out his name so that the Cyclops would always know who he is. Although this was fun for Odysseus at the time, it turned out to be a very bad idea for him. This is because Poseidon, the Cyclops’ father was enraged by the fact that Odysseus blinded him. Therefore, Odysseus became on the bad side of Poseidon. Although many may argue that this is because Odysseus is cursed, in reality it is merely because Odysseus acted as a dumbfounded leader and made it harder for all of his companions by taunting the Gods.

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  4. AnonymousFebruary 26, 2009 at 7:18 PM

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  5. AnonymousFebruary 26, 2009 at 7:31 PM

    I agree with the earlier comments that were made. Although Poseidon is doing everything in his power to stop Odysseus from returning to Ithica, which he does fairly well, Odysseus has gotten himself and his crew into serious situations that have resulted in the death of most of his crew and the prolonging of his journey. There are situations where he proves himself to be a good leader by being heroic. For example, he is able to save most of his crew from being eaten by the Cyclops. There are cases, however, when Odysseus makes costly mistakes during his journey. When he and his crew made it back to the boat, Odysseus felt the need to brag about the brilliance of his escape, which resulted in the Cyclops calling on his father, Poseidon, to make sure Odysseus goes home "a broken man." His father complies, which is where most of the trouble begins. Granted, Odysseus' escape was a grand achievement, but it could have been avoided if they hadn't decided to filch items from Cyclops' cave in the first place. He also seems to have trouble controlling his crew. He does tell them what they shoudn't do, which is what a good leader should do. However, he is unable to ensure that they follow his order. As captain, he should take their blame, but it's hard to tell who truly takes the blame. All in all, I believe that Odysseus is a good leader that exercising from time to time.

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  6. Peter Montjoy TrimbleFebruary 27, 2009 at 10:28 AM

    I would say that everyone makes there own destiny and that Odysseus as a great leader he is very good as a captain and as a king. I would say that his crew gets him into a great amount of trouble for example like with the bag of wind when his crew did not trust him and they decide to open the bag and they waist the gift. i would say that sometimes Odysseus makes bad decisions like when they stay on Circes island for 1 year and don’t leave because they are being treated very well with the guest host relationship. In the end the crew was not very intelligent and they did not make good decisions. Odysseus is very good with coming up with ideas for example when he finally gets home he tells his son the plan to get rid of the suitors and even when he is talking to his wife he does not brake the character by telling her that he is Odysseus in his beggar form. In the end Odysseus is a very great leader who tried as hard as he could to get his entire crew home but in the end everyone made bad decisions but manly the crew made the bad decisions and Odysseus was the last person how made it home. Odysseus is a very good leader.

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  7. David NelsonFebruary 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM

    Odysseus is a great leader and leads his crew out of many disasters. Without Odysseus, his crew would not have survived as long as they did, nor would they have made it off of the island of the Cyclops. They also would not have made it off of the island of the lotus-eaters without the guidance of their leader. He had the choice of either having his entire crew die in the whirlpool, or having six crewmembers die with the 6-headed monster. He chose only to have 6 crewmembers die. Also, he has a lot of help from Athena on his journey home. Athena tells him what he can and can’t do on his journey home, and without her he might have gotten the whole ship destroyed. Without Athena, the journey home commanded by Odysseus would not have been so easy. However, Odysseus still had to follow through with what Athena said, which he did, and this led the ship out of numerous perils. Although none of the ship members stayed living because they ate Helios’s cattle and died, without Odysseus they would not have lasted nearly as long as they did, and Odysseus is a great leader who does his best to try and lead his crew back to Ithaca.

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  8. Liam V GreenFebruary 27, 2009 at 12:12 PM

    After our reading of the majority of the first twenty chapters of Homer's, The Odyssey, I firmly believe that although Odysseus makes bad decisions at times throughout the Odyssey that overall he is indeed a great leader. He does cause some of his own problems, but some of the opportunities to mess up would not be presented if it weren't for his crew. As for if he is responsible for the loss of all his comrades, the answer is NO. They were responsible for their fate and particularly Eurylochus who rallied his fellow crew to make the wrong decisions. This is seen on Circe's island, and on the island where Helios' cattle were. He first chose to go on the island, and in the end he chose to go against Odysseus, breaking his oath, and eat the cattle knowing that bad consequences would be affect. If his disloyal crew hadn't opened Odysseus' bag of wind given to him as a gift, they would have arrived at home safely long before the end of their days. He does make his journey for his men and him more difficult, by telling the cyclops his real name after escaping his cave by stabbing his eye because this causes the cyclops' father, Poseidon, to make sure that Odysseus' travels do not go as planned. Overall, he is a good leader that makes some poor choices, but is essentially doomed because of his shipmates.

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  9. *Melodi Gray-Junebug*Alot of Things But Normal HeheFebruary 27, 2009 at 1:16 PM

    From his actions in the book, it can be concluded that Odysseus is a bad leader.His bad attributes include his cunning ways, his arrogance, and his greed. All of these characteristics play a part in him not returning home and the loss of his crew. For example, once Polyphemus decides to let Odysseus and his crew on their way, Odysseus just has to brag and let all know who has won. What a bad idea. From his bragging eventually comes Poseidon's animosity towards him. Poseidons animosity turns into a series of mishaps for Odysseus and his shipmates. In this case Odysseus' mouth gets him and others into trouble.
    The only good attributes that he has are physical strength and a reputation, which brings up another thought. Odysseus' reputaion all may be a lie because half of the time he's telling the stories of his "great life" himself.Other than strength Odysseus doesnt really have any consistently shown positive attributes.Odysseus has physical strength yet he cannot control his own crew or his own actions. For example, at the sun gods land Odysseus overstays his welcome which leads to his crew defying directions and eating the sun god's cattle. That poor decision is ultimately the reason half of his crew is dead.Many occasions occur when Odysseus cannot control things/people around him.Having no real control over his crew or himself categorizes him as a bad leader.

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  10. *Melodi Gray-Junebug*Alot of Things But Normal HeheFebruary 27, 2009 at 1:18 PM

    To add to my previous comment... Odysseus is responsible for the downfalls of his voyage home and the loss of his shipmates.

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  11. Anna GarnitzFebruary 28, 2009 at 7:51 AM

    I think Odysseus is a bad leader who causes his own problems and the reason he does not have a crew. As Zeus said, the mortals cannot keep blaming the gods for all of their problems and wrongdoings. Yes, Poseidon is a major threat to Odysseus throughout his journey back to Ithaca, but Odysseus would not be Poseidon’s major target if he did not have the need to boast and brag of his accomplishments. When Odysseus is finally out of Polyphemus’s cave with his remaining men, they are safe to leave the blinded Cyclops behind and finish the journey. Odysseus, being the braggart that he is, decided to scream to all the Cyclops inhabiting the island that it was him, Odysseus that blinded Polyphemus. When Poseidon hears of this, he is furious and makes it his goal to try to keep Odysseus’s journey home as long and painful as he could make it. Along with upsetting the gods, Odysseus often upsets his crewmembers. The relationship between Odysseus and his crew is unhealthy. Their relationship is based on jealousy, disobedience, and mutiny. I can see how Odysseus can get frustrated with such a horrible crew, but at the same time, Odysseus is arrogant and blinded by his own need for credit. If Odysseus had been respectful to his crew and to the people that he met while on his journey, Odysseus might not have as many problems as he has today, and he might still have a crew.

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  12. Max SegalFebruary 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM

    I believe that Odysseus is a bad leader who causes his own problems including the loss of his crew. There are several examples in the Odyssey where Odysseus makes costly mistakes that result in serous consequences, such as the part in Book 9. On line 558, Odysseus says “Cyclops- if any man on the face of the earth should ask you who blinded you, shamed you so- say Odysseus, raider of cities, he gouged out your eye, Laertes’ son who makes his home in Ithaca!” Even though Odysseus clearly escapes from Polyphemus, he still feels the need to brag about his accomplishments and reveal his name and location. As a result, Poseidon finds out what happened and ultimately wreaks havoc on Odysseus and his crew.

    Even though his crew is extremely irresponsible and never follows orders, Odysseus still does not treat them the way that he should. A very common but wise phrase that most of us know is to treat someone the way you would want to be treated, and obviously that is not how Odysseus treats his crew. Instead of trying to communicate with them peacefully and quietly, he gets extremely furious at any little thing that his crew could do wrong. The two most important issues between him and his crew are with the bag of wind and the cattle of the sun. I do think that some of the blame should be put on his crew for these incidents, but if Odysseus wasn’t constantly blinded by his arrogance then he would still have a crew.

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  13. Claire HobsonFebruary 28, 2009 at 3:53 PM

    I believe that in the Odyssey, the common idea that Odysseus is a good leader is greatly exaggerated by his people over time. Odysseus does not know how to control his men therefore he is not a great leader. An example of this is from pages 279-284, when Odysseus goes to the sun gods island. He was not supposed to stop on the island, but he did because he could not control his men and they revolted against him, making an unexpected stop. Although Odysseus does not make this decision he tries to lead his men again by making them promise not to eat the son god’s precious cattle, but he did not enforce this promise, making it as breakable as a piece of glass. Once the men were there for a couple of months they had eaten through their food, and decided to revolt again against their leader and eat the cattle. Somehow Odysseus got knocked out, and did not lead his men to make the right decision to not eat the cattle. This lets the men run free and eat most of the sun gods cattle. Ultimately, angering the sun god by eating his cattle led to the demise of his men and his ship. This is all Odysseus’s fault because he knew he should not have stopped at the island. Due to the fact that he could not control or lead his men, he is not able to stop his crew from eating the cattle which puts him in a situation of having no crew or ship.

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  14. Jonathan MecklerFebruary 28, 2009 at 4:37 PM

    Although far from perfect, Odysseus overall is a good and often times heroic leader. He is willing to risk his life and his own comfort for the sake of his men. When Odysseus learns from Eurylochus that Circe has turned his men into pigs, he bravely sets out by himself to rescue them. He does not let any fear of what Circe might do to him deter him from trying to free his men. Odysseus’s loyalty to his men is evident when he refuses Circe’s offer of food and drink until she restores his men to human form. He tells Circe, “..how could any man in his right mind endure the taste of food and drink before he’d freed his comrades-in-arms and looked them in the eyes?” (page 242 lines 423-425).
    Leaders are frequently put in the position of having to make very difficult decisions, often involving life and death. In trying to navigate his ship through the dual dangers of Scylla and Charybdis, Odysseus’ leadership skills are put to the test. Charybdis is a powerful whirlpool that could swallow his entire ship. Scylla is a six-headed monster that threatens to devour one sailor for each of her heads. Thus, Odysseus is face with a heart- wrenching decision. Does he risk losing his entire crew, or does he sacrifice six men to save the rest. Ultimately, Odysseus makes the painful decision to avoid Charybdis and sail by Scylla. This results in the gruesome death of six of his men who are eaten alive by the six-headed monster, but his decision probably saved the rest of his crew from being drowned in the whirlpool. Odysseus thus exhibits many qualities of a good leader; he puts his men’s welfare before his own and he has the ability to make tough decisions when faced with horrendous circumstances.

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  15. Corey SteinbergFebruary 28, 2009 at 5:17 PM

    Odysseus is a brave warrior and a valiant king. He has fought along side of many great heroes, including Achilles, Agamemnan, and Menelaus. He is a great and noble man that is reverred by some gods and hated by others. He is an all around great man, but a horrible leader. During the Trojan Wars, he was a hero, and his men looked up to him because of this. But after the Trojan Wars, when he and his crew set sail, and they were lost on their journeys, he lost most if not all control of his crew. His men disobeyed his orders on a daily basis. His men lost all trust in him, an example being when they released the bag of winds. Sure he is smart and cunning, but a good leader has to demand and have control over their men. All the traits listed before are that of a valient hero, not a leader. In short, Odysseus is a good warrior, bad leader.

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  16. Sonia FeldmanFebruary 28, 2009 at 5:19 PM

    Odysseus is an inattentive, leader who is unable to control his crew. Odysseus, leader of the group, king of Ithaca, repeatedly fell asleep on the job, leaving his crew unattended. In his absence all kinds of mishaps occurred further delaying their return home. What kind of leader falls asleep on their crew leaving them to fend for themselves, and make their own ignorant decisions? Even when he is awake he is unable to make his crew do his bidding. They insist on stopping at the island of the sun, and after successfully sacking an island they insisted on foolishly remaining to enjoy their plunder rather then leaving immediately. They ended up losing all their riches when the citizens of the island regrouped and attacked. Even though these were bad decisions on behalf of the crew, Odysseus as the leader should have been able to stick up for his own opinion and stop them.

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  17. Jordan BFebruary 28, 2009 at 5:39 PM

    I think that Odysseus is a bad leader because he wanted to be known as the person who blinded a Cyclops and he obviously wanted the glory instead of thinking of his comrades or family. By doing that he got all of his crew killed anyways. He is a bad leader because he blames most of his mistakes on the gods when they are usually all his fault. For example when his crew stole the sun god’s cattle, even though he was responsible for them, he blamed the gods for making him fall asleep when his crew was up to no good.

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  18. Claire CohenFebruary 28, 2009 at 5:59 PM

    Throughout the Odyssey, thus far, Odysseus has had instances in which he was both a good and a bad leader, but he is primarily a bad leader. I believe that one of the key traits of a good leader is the ability to control one’s men. This is a trait which Odysseus is lacking. There are many times throughout the Odyssey when Odysseus commands his crew to do one thing, and they do the other. One example of this is in book twelve, Odysseus tells his crew not to eat the cattle of the sun, and the men make an oath with Odysseus, but they later break the oath causing difficulty to Odysseus to and themselves. Had Odysseus had complete control over his crew, they would have trusted him as a leader and they would not have broke his oath. Odysseus is a bad leader because he does not have complete control over his crew.

    Another reason that Odysseus is a bad leader is because he is selfish and too concerned with his own personal fame. The best example of this from The Odyssey is when Odysseus is leaving Polyphemus’s island. While on the island, Odysseus blinded the Cyclops, but did not kill him because he needed to move the rock so they could leave the cave. Also, when Polyphemus asks Odysseus his name, Odysseus simply says nobody. This is one of the first times throughout The Odyssey when Odysseus is not concerned with fame. It seems as though Odysseus is using his knowledge and being a good leader, but in fact when they are leaving Polypphemus’s island, Odyssus taunts the Cyclops and almost ends up killing himself and his entire crew. In the end, the crew and Odyssus are both fine, but this is an obvious example of Odysseus’s selfishness and it proves that he is not a good leader.

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  19. AnonymousFebruary 28, 2009 at 8:14 PM

    I think that Odysseus is neither of these things fully. In few instances, Odysseus can be a good leader, for example when he leads the crew through the Sirens. He is also cursed by the gods, in particular Poseidon and his want to prolong Odysseus's journey home on many occasions. Odysseus in many cases I would argue, is more often a bad leader than a good one. Being irresponsible, he falls asleep on the boat and give his crew the opportunity to open the bag of winds. He succumbs to his crew and allows them all to stop and rest on the island of Helios, where they have the event where his men slaughter the animals and they get into more trouble with the gods. He exhibits bad behavior when they go into the cave of Polymepheus and eat his cheese, and again when they go past Scylla and Charybdis and Odysseus ignores foreshadowing words and suits up to fight off the beasts anyways. All of these, a poor decisions on Odysseus's part. I agree that he is cursed by Poseidon. Some argue that it is wrongful. My stance is that, even being cursed by Poseidon is his own doing. If he hadn't snuck into his cave, stole his food, and stayed in there with his men, then he wouldn't have gotten trapped, etc., then he would not have blinded Polymepheus, which caused Poseidon's anger in the first place. As far as the losing of his crew goes, I wouldn't entirely blame that on Odysseus. Yes, he gave in and allowed his crew to stop on the island in the first place, but he also was irresponsible yet again and went farther away to sleep and, according to his own story, missed the whole incident. If he had a better relationship with his crew and had been more cautious and watchful, they may not have ended up slaughtering Helios' cattle. However, even though he may not be directly to blame, he does have poor influence on this situation.

    In more instances than not, I believe Odysseus to be a bad leader. Back to the original question, Odysseus is not just a good leader cursed by the Gods. He is cursed by the gods partially because of his own doing; and even if he had absolutely nothing to do with that, and Poseidon's hate in particular for blinding Polymepheus, I think that Odysseus' self centeredness would always consistently get in the way of him being a good leader.

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  20. Kevin SperoffMarch 1, 2009 at 8:13 AM

    Throughout the epic of the odyssey you can see how Odysseus is cursed by the gods and what kind of leader he is. Odysseus is not a great leader, but he’s also not a horrible leader. Depending on the section in the book, he could be doing a great job as a leader, or he could be doing a horrible job. For example, Odysseus is doing a good job of leading his crew when he steers them past the sirens and how he gives them caveats in order to make it past almost all of the dangers that they have face and will face. On the other hand, Odysseus can be a horrible leader; for example, when Odysseus falls asleep and lets his crew open the bag of winds. Another example is when he finally succumbs to his crew’s desire and they stop on Helio’s island. It is evident that Odysseus’s journey was filled with hardship because of a god with a vendetta towards him. If Poseidon hadn’t tried to sabotage Odysseus’s journey, then who knows, maybe none of his hardships would have taken place. You can’t blame all of the mishaps on any one person, you can say though, that all the troubles where caused by the gods, Odysseus, and the unfaithful crew.

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  21. Sami HawwaMarch 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM

    I believe Odyssey is a great leader, although he ends up losing his crew in a ship accident, gets himself practically killed and hurts almost everyone around him it is all caused by the gods who keep tricking and cursing him. Odysseus in one situation if put to sleep by Zeus and as a result his crew eats the cattle of the Sun God ultimately leading to the death of the whole crew; and although this could have been blamed on because of Odysseus the main reason this happened was because he was put to sleep by the gods.

    Not only do the God’s put pressure on the leader, however his own people, his crew puts pressure on him. His crew is ignorant, and doesn’t listen to their captain ultimately also leading to the death of them. So to follow up on this post, the reason that Odysseus is seen as a bad leader is because of one, his crew, and two, the gods.

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  22. Robert FearonMarch 1, 2009 at 11:13 AM

    I think that Odysseus is a good leader, he just has very bad luck, the gods hate him, and he has a bad crew. If the Odyssey were a book without mythology, then Odysseus would be a poor leader. Luckily for him, the blame falls on a lot of bad luck. Starting from the beginning of his voyage home, his crew disobeys him repeatedly. At the island of the Circonians, they want to stay behind and accumulate more wealth in the form of plunder. Their greed causes Odysseus to loose his fleet and have only one ship left to get home. At the next island he has issues with his crew, where they want to stay with the lotus eaters and eat lotus for the rest of their lives. The first two islands are examples of his troublesome crew that cannot be controlled. The next island that they land on proves trouble for Odysseus because of the Cyclopes living there, but it was not because of his bad leadership that he got some of his men killed. Odysseus had no idea that there would be man-eating giants in the island. He set out for a simple recon mission and ended up in a giant’s cave. It was bad luck that got him there, not bad leadership. In the end, it is his leadership that saves his men from the Cyclopes. Similarly, Circe’s island was a simple recon mission that went awry. Odysseus’s biggest setback is the slaughtering of the cattle of the sun. Again in this situation, Odysseus cannot control a troublesome crew. To make it worse, the gods interfere with Odysseus’s leadership, “As soon as I had prayed to the gods whole rule Olympus, down on my eyes they poured a sweet, sound sleep.” Odysseus cannot be blamed for not controlling his men on the island of the sun because the gods forced him to sleep. If there were no gods, then Odysseus is to blame for not watching his crew, but because gods exist, they take the blame for his hardships.

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  23. Maria KolesarMarch 1, 2009 at 11:49 AM

    There are many obstacles that Odysseus, as a leader has to face. Despite many of the obstacles, I believe Odysseus show leadership qualities that are both bad and good. One example of Odysseus showing a good leadership is when he saved the majority of his crew when blinding the Cyclops.
    But as many times Odysseus has saved his crew there were times that he displayed bad leadership. First, Odysseus is shown as a bad listener when he doesn’t follow the Circe warnings. Another time he shows bad leadership is when he led his crew into the inhabitants of the Cyclops or even taunting the Cyclops, which could have brought serious harm to his crew. Also an example of Odysseus showing bad leadership is during the Cattle of the Sun. during this event, Odysseus was not aware when the men killed one of the cattle. They offered a sacrifice to Apollo and ate the rest. When Odysseus realized what was going on he was upset, he knew it was going to cause trouble. What nobody realized was that they had killed one of the Sun King's cattle. As soon as they put to sea a dreadful hurricane hit their ship. It snapped the mast and killed some of the men. Things got so bad that Odysseus lashed two pieces of wood together and took to the water. Ten days later he was washed up on the shore of Calypso's island with all of his men gone.
    But, this and many other examples as well, show that not all the blame should have been placed on Odysseus. Many of the times the blame should have been on his crew or on the gods. His crew made many rational decisions and temptations that lead them into more danger, such as the examples of the Lotus Eaters. And the gods should have also been blamed because they were the ones who caused them veer off their intended course.

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  24. Morgan CoharaMarch 1, 2009 at 1:11 PM

    In some ways I believe that Odysseus is a good leader, however they are some flaws in his character that influence him to be a bad leader. Odysseus expresses his qualities of a good leaders when advising his crew about certain obstacles that are coming their way and how to approach them. For example, when Circe told Odysseus of the Island of the Sun god and how he should not venture there he forewarned his crew of this advice, and did not keep this from them for their own safety. However, when Odysseus told his crew this they felt that he was being unreasonable because they wanted to rest. Instead of holding true to his previous advice he gave in to the wants of his crew. This shows a flaw in his leadership because it reveals that he is easily influenced by his crew and what they want to do instead of putting his foot down. After giving in to their wishes, Odysseus then warns his crew not to eat the cattle for their own safety but again they do not listen to him. This shows that Odysseus tries to look out or his crew for their own well being, but has little control over them. In conclusion, Odysseus has some qualities of a good leader, but at the same time has qualities of a bad one.

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  25. Nya' BraxtonMarch 1, 2009 at 2:41 PM

    Simply put, Odysseus is just like any other person. Every normal person has flaws, no one is perfect. Odysseus has had his share of mess ups and his share of victories. Most people who are put in charge handle it in many different ways. Throughout the year we have seen many people, in books and government, take their power and use it in different ways. Odysseus, just like these people and characters, has chosen his leading style, which seems to be just going with the flow. Many examples of Odysseus's great acts during his voyage include, him saving his companions from Circe when one of the crew mates begged him to take off, blinding the giant, and much more. Some of his bad decisions always seems to be falling asleep. His crew can NOT be trusted alone because they themselves make the bad decisions. Odysseus seems to be more of an independent person then a leader, but that does not make him a bad or good leader. As a leader he feeds his crew and tries his best to keep all of them alive. His crew does not follow Odysseus’s directions and that leads to their demise, it is not Odysseus who leads them to an end.

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  26. RebeccaMarch 1, 2009 at 3:39 PM

    Odysseus is a both a bad leader and a good leader. He causes his own problems but I believe that the two are not connected in this case. It depends on what defines a leader as good or bad. I believe that a good leader is someone who is brave, a good person morally, and someone who is liked by everyone. Odysseus is always seen sacrificing his crew by sending them off to explore and this makes him seem scared. If he was brave, he would go explore and not send his crew to do the dirty work. Also, let it be argued that he doesn't want to die a stupid way because he wants fame and glory. Therefore, he sends off his crew in case something out there can kill him. Here Odysseus is neither moral nor does it seem as if he cares for his crew.Furthermore, its not as if Odysseus can have acheieved any of this on his own. It was with the help of the gods that he acheieved what he did. Odysseus also hides behind a facade, and tells stories that shape who he is, because he is scared of what people may think of him. This demonstrates fear. This fear also demonstrates that if he is scared that people won't like him, then there must be some reason, or something that others wouldn't approve of. His true self may not be liked by the people. The decisions he makes causes him problems no doubt, but this does not contribute to being a good leader. As stated above, everyone makes mistakes and it should not categorize what type of leader one is. However, I believe the ability to get everyone out of that situation contributes to being a good leader. Odysseus can take people out of the situations he puts them in, and in this way, he is a good leader.

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  27. AnonymousMarch 1, 2009 at 6:26 PM

    I think that Odysseus is a bad leader. For the most part he is the cause of his own problems. Most of the trouble he encounters occurs from his crew getting out of line. A good leader is able to control his crew. Odysseus gives in when his crew begs for something, and lets them out of his site when he knows they have a record of bad behavior. An example of Odysseus giving in is when he agrees to stop at the island of the Sun. He has been told by numerous prophecies that if he stops on this island there will be trouble. His most mutinous crewmate, Eurylochus, convinces the crew that stopping on this island would be good so Odysseus gives in. An example of Odysseus letting his mutinous crew out of site is when they are on the island of the Sun. Odysseus thinks that having them take an oath saying they won’t harm the cattle is enough. He should realize that he must keep an eye on his crew because they never listen to him. And once again, Eurylochus persuades the crew to disobey Odysseus which lands them in a whole new world of trouble with the Gods. He also should realize that most of the times his crew is having mutinous thoughts is when they are tired and/or hungry. I know that it is not possible to keep everyone rested and fed at all times, but I think he should be aware of this so he can keep an even closer eye on them if they are tired and hungry. Another fault of Odysseus’s is that he sometimes is selfish and only thinks about what he wants and looses site of the feeling’s of the whole group. This happens when the crew stays at Circe’s. Odysseus allows himself to be distracted from his mission, which is reaching Ithaca, he spends a whole year with Circe rather than traveling home. Nothing horrible comes of this but I think there would be a better dynamic in the group if Odysseus was looking out for their desires, not just his own. I think some suggestions for his leadership skills would be to stand firm to his decisions to let the crew know that he is in charge and has the final say in everything, keep an eye on his crew until he is absolutely positive he can trust every single one of them, keep his crew well rested and fed, and to consider the crew’s feelings and ideas in his decision making.

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  28. j jafMarch 1, 2009 at 6:32 PM

    I think Odysseus is a bad leader with good intentions, and is undermined by himself, his crew and the gods. He is only concerned with his own well being and not the well being of the crew. For example in chapter 12 on Helios’ island of the sun. Odysseus is warned by both Circe and Tiresias to avoid the island entirely. Though when he looses control of his crew and is threatened with mutiny by his crew if they don’t stop to rest at Helios’ island, he gives in. He knew that if he refused to let his crew go to the island there was a chance he would be mutinied. Instead of explaining the situation to his crew, he accommodates them knowing that he is giving them an opportunity to eat Helios’ cattle and that if they do eat Helios’ cattle they will be killed by the gods. In this situation he is like a parent leaving his children, the crew, who cry to stay in the car, alone with the keys in the ignition while he goes into a store. Instead of manning up to his crew he backs down and by doing so can be considered negligent. Later, when his crew is killed by the gods, Odysseus recounts that he couldn’t stop weeping. I find that hard to believe because he puts his life before the life of his entire crew. This is bad leadership because he should be responsible for the lives of his crew.
    Also in this chapter, the god Zeus undermines Odysseus because while Odysseus is in the woods, Zeus cast a deep sleep on Odysseus. It is during this sleep that Odysseus’ crew kills and eats the cattle. If Odysseus were awake though, he could have probably prevented his crew from eating the cattle. If not for his over exaggerated sense of self-importance I think Odysseus would have been able to get his crew back alive.

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  29. Dani BernsMarch 1, 2009 at 6:43 PM

    I think that it is unfair for Odysseus to blame his misfortune entirely on the gods because he causes his own misfortunes by landing on the island of the Cyclops and the island of Helios. Therefore, all of his misfortunes that came from landing on the islands can only be blamed on himself. Although Odysseus appears to have good intentions as a leader, he often fails to execute these actions properly, due to his inability to control his crew and selfish attitude. Numerous times throughout the Odyssey, Odysseus will guide his crew in one direction but behind his back they will head in the opposite direction. An example of this is in Book 12, when Odysseus faces the most difficult temptation of all, the cattle of the sun. On the island of the sungod Helios, Odysseus explains to his crew “if they harm any cattle, the ship and men will be destroyed. Odysseus alone may survive, but he will return home late and alone, a broken man” (Book 12 Lines 148-153). This quotation shows that Odysseus was trying to protect his crew from destruction. However, the crew is still tempted by the cattle and decides to kill and sacrifice the sungod’s cattle. This disobedience demonstrates Odysseus’ inability to lead his crew because his crew does not want to trust his guidance, showing lack of control.
    Not only are Odysseus’ intentions overlooked due to his inability to control his crew, but also due to his self-absorbed nature. Odysseus appears to have harmless plans, yet he consistently puts his crew in danger in order to accomplish them. While on Polyphemus’ island, Odysseus conceals his identity to favor the crew. However, Odysseus simply cannot leave the island without telling the Cyclops his name because he is so focused on his fame and his legacy. Odysseus waits until he thinks he and his crew are at a safe distance from the island before he taunts the Cyclops and reveals his name. This intention backfired because the angered Cyclops threw large rocks, which nearly washed the ship back to the island. Polyphemus also prayed to his father, Poseidon, to punish Odysseus so that he either does not return home, or returns home to pain and sorrow. This prayer affects Odysseus throughout his entire journey. Had Odysseus not been so selfish, he would not have risked his crew for fame.

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  30. AnonymousMarch 2, 2009 at 6:15 AM

    I believe, as a leader, Odysseus has good intentions, but he doesn't know how to execute as a leader. There are countless examples of this throughout the odyssey. The first and most obvious example of this is when the men are begging odysseus to stop at Helios, the God of the Sun's island, so they can rest, and have some food and drink. Although odysseus knows it is a bad idea, he falls into peer pressure when his crew swears that they won't eat the cattle of Helios, or as they refer to it in the book, the cattle of the sun. Odysseus takes their word, and trusts them, which is a trait of a good leader, and stops at the island. Once they are at the island, Odysseus is drawn away from his men by Zeus, and then falls asleep. When Odysseus's men see the oppurtunity, they kill the cattle of the sun, eat it, and try to make it seem better by killing it in a sacrificial way (although they didnt even have the right "tools" to perform a sacrifice). When odysseus wakes up, he realizes that his crew ate the cattle of the sun, which they had vowed not to do. After this happens, odysseus knows their trip home is about to get a lot harder. In summary, Odysseus's intentions of trusting the crew and stopping at the island were good, as he didn't plan on letting them eat the cattle of the sun, but his execution as a leader is poor, which in the long run is more important than having good intentions. Therefore, i believe odysseus is not a good leader

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  31. Allie SchwertnerMarch 2, 2009 at 6:23 PM

    Odysseus has a name filled with honor. When he walks into the new towns, people are talking about the great Odysseus. Obviously, people take pride in hearing his name but does he deserve it for the right reasons? Odysseus has gone years surviving the treacheries put into his path by the Gods. Even though the Gods are cursing him throughout the whole story, Odysseus shows great leadership by making it through it all. Except I see Odysseus as a bad leader because the only reason he is having all the bad things happen to him is because he determined his fate. When he killed Cyclops in book nine, it shows him making a stupid mistake. The only reason he wanted to kill her was so it would make him look good. But when he killed her the Gods were enraged. If he wouldn't have killed her then he wouldn't have such a problem getting back to his family. I feel as though the reason for most of his crew dyeing is for him not taking accountability. When he mentions his crew getting killed in various places, we see that he is often "sleeping". But how do we know if this is true or not because Odysseus is telling the story? We don't know for a fact what actually happened. A good leader would have admitted to having a part in why his crew died. I believe that Odysseus has the opportunity at points in the story to show great leadership qualities, but at parts I believe most of his actions are based upon seeing the end result, pride.

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  32. Allie SchwertnerMarch 2, 2009 at 6:25 PM

    Following above

    You can see in 9.20-25 "I am Odysseus, son of Laertes, known to the world for every kind of craft, my fame has reached the skies." Odysseus takes great pride in what he has accomplished in life. I think that his motivation in life to be a better person is how much glory he can gain. It doesn't matter to him if he is a good leader to his people.

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  33. Nick RanalloMarch 4, 2009 at 9:20 AM

    The simple answer to this question is both. Both the gods and Odysseus's own actions play apart in his hardships. A perfect example of this is in the episode of the cattle of Apollo. Odysseus and his men were in conflict. The men wanted to land on this island and rest, but Odysseus insticts caused him to believe otherwise. Odysseus as the leader should have listened to his instincts and avoided the island. In stead, Odysseus gives in to his crew and lands on the island on the condition that no one touches the cattle of Apollo. This was his mistake as a leader. The gods had numerous roles in the catastrophe that eventually takes place as well, though. The men land on the island to rest. After resting, the men wanting leave were held there by winds. These winds are most likely from the gods preventing the men from leaving the island. The men kept their oath to Odysseus until their supplies ran out. The winds continued and the men became starved. Odysseus kept reminding his men of the oath. The gods then layed sleep upon Odysseus. While asleep, Odysseus man, at the breaking point, ate the cattle of Apollo. Had the gods not put Odysseus asleep, he could have stopped his men. As punishment all men who ate the cattle were killed. In this scene we see a perfect example of Odysseus bad leadership and the will of the gods both participating in a hardship that comes upon Odysseus and his men.

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  34. Maya AhujaMarch 5, 2009 at 2:19 PM

    Throughout the Odyssey, we see many good and bad qualities of Odysseus. Odysseus is known to be a great leader and these leadership qualities are presented in how he always looks out for his men. Although sometimes the advice he gives them is ignored and this reflects on the men's stubbornness. This behavior is seen before the attack of the Cicones. Odysseus takes from Troy what he needs and is eager to leave. However, his men ignore this order and stay to celebrate. This stubborn behavior leads to the loss of 6 men from each ship. However, the loss of Odysseus's men is very important in the Odyssey because it is important that he returns home alone. I think it's irresponsible for Odysseus to put his life before the life of his entire crew. This is terrible leadership because he should be responsible for the lives of HIS crew. I feel like Odysseus has great intentions, but in the end turns out to be a terrible leader.

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  35. AnonymousMarch 5, 2009 at 3:42 PM

    Throughout the epic, Odysseus has shown that he is a good leader at times but more often than not, he is a bad leader. I believe that one of the key traits of being a good leader is being able to control what is under your control. This is a trait that Odysseus doesn’t seem to posses. For example Odysseus doesn’t show a strong sense of leadership towards his crew. More often than not, he commands his crew to do something, but they tend to do the opposite. An example of this is in book 12. Odysseus tells his crew NOT to eat the cattle of the sun. The men then make an oath with Odysseus that they will not eat the cattle. Later they then break the oath while Odysseus is sleeping. If Odysseus had complete control over his crew, this would not have happened.

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  36. Lexi KMarch 5, 2009 at 6:27 PM

    While Odysseus is said to be a great leader, many times that is not the case. Occasionally he is a good leader but usually he just messes things up. Take the incident with the cyclops. Odysseus exhibited some great leadership skills while freeing them from Polyphemus. However, Odysseus's arrogance ruined everything. He felt the need to get recognition. As soon as he revealed his identity, Poseidon cursed him. The only reason he was cursed is because of his own stupid mistake. Odysseus also believes he is better than the other members of his crew and does not trust them. Consequently, the crew doesn't trust Odysseus. If Odysseus had trusted his crew and told them about the bag of wind, they wouldn't have opened it. However, they didnt trust Odysseus and thought he had riches in there. Trust is an important quality in a good, successful leader and Odysseus is sorely lacking in the trust area.

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  37. tommy v willenMarch 6, 2009 at 9:51 AM

    I believe that Odysseus is a good leader and tries to take care of his crew. Despite the fact that he is a good leader, he makes some mistakes which lead to his crew being killed. For example, he directs his men to go to the nymph's house and scout it out and see if its safe. He does this in order to protect his men from danger. There does happen to be danger there and his men were killed and turned to pigs. Odysseus made a mistake in sending his men in to scout out the trail ahead. He made a good decision in doing that to ready his troops but maybe shouldn't have sent his own men. It is shown that he cares about his men when he returns and saves them from the nymph. I think Odyssues is a good leader with good intentions but sometimes doesn't think about his actions which may lead to his men getting killed.

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  38. Adam CharnasMarch 6, 2009 at 8:46 PM

    Odysseus is a good leader, because in many situations he makes smart tactical moves with his crew or fellow fighters in mind. For example, in book 12 Odysseus warns his crew about killing Helios' cattle, "'Friends, we've food and drink aplenty aboar the ship- keep your hands off all these herds or we will pay the price! The cattle, the sleek flocks, belong to an awesome master, Helios, god of the sun who sees all, hears all things'" (12.345-348)
    Also, in book 22, Odysseus' good leadership skills help him and 3 other to slaughter over 120 suitors, some of whom are armed, "'Friends! now it's for us to hurl at them, I say, into this ruck of suitors!'" (22.275-277), "'Run, fetch them,...while I've got arrows left to defend me...' Telemachus moved to his father's orders smartly." (22.113-117).

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  39. AnonymousMarch 6, 2009 at 10:01 PM

    In my opinion, Odysseus does have some characteristics of a good leader, however I feel as if he reflects as more as a bad leader than a good one. For one, he fails to control his crew on numerous occasions. A good leader is respected by his people. and is also obeyed. The crew members do not respect nor obey Odysseus. They feel as if he is greedy, and unfair - which justifies their reason for opening the bag of wind (which was opened while Odysseus was not supervising the crew, and instead was sleeping.) This situation in itself shows how Odysseus is unable to have his crew trust him, and he is also irresponsible for falling asleep and not tending to them.

    The inability to control crew themselves show how Odysseus is a bad leader. In fact, on many occasions, they are mutinous towards Odysseus; not listening to his rules or guidelines. Especially when they were on the Island with the sun cattle. Even after vowing to Odysseus to not eat the sun cattle, they did anyways. Odysseus was not responsible on this occasion, as he was not monitoring his crew However, his leadership authority did not mean much to them, as they disregarded it by breaking the vow. A good leader's word is honored by the people.

    In addition to not being able to control his crew, he sometimes cannot even control himself. Revealing his identity after blinding Polythemus was a move which showed how he is full of himself - wanting honor for harming the cyclops. A good leader must be intelligent, and know the consequences of certain decisions.

    However, one thing Odysseus did do that gave him characteristics of a good leader was when he finished off the suitors and the people who were disloyal to him while he was away. Using his sly tactics, he was able to separate the loyal from the disloyal and punished the disloyal appropriately. This exemplifies his sense of judgement, and his ability to hold the reins of his household.

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  40. Eve KermanMarch 7, 2009 at 6:37 AM

    Leadership is when one establishes a clear course and influences others to follow. In the Odyssey, Homer's radiant character Odysseus exemplifies strength and courage. He is brave in battle and stronger than any other mortal in the epic. Although Odysseus's strength and courage help him to safely arrive home, his lack of leadership delays his journey for over ten years. Odysseus's bad leadership is clear when he selfishly taunts the Cyclops and sacrifices the crew's free route home. Later, he does not have control over his crew which leads to disaster on the island of the sun. There are various occasions where the crew disobey and ignore Odysseus commands or wishes. This ignorance from the crew causes Odysseus to make bad decisions and often not be in control over his own ship. Odysseus is the only warrior from Troy who reaches his home. Even though Odysseus reaches his home, he is not able to lead his whole crew home because his struggle to control his crew leads them to their death on the sea. Odysseus is a powerful character who wins over the heart of the reader. Although he is a brave and strong character, Odysseus's lack of leadership causes many problems and leads his crew to death in the epic tale.

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  41. StuMarch 8, 2009 at 9:11 AM

    Odysseus is both a good and a horrible leader at the same time. He can't keep control over his crew, especially Euryolocus, who fail to follow direct orders and have trouble trusting him. If Odysseus was such a great leader, his crew would have trusted him with the bag of winds, securing a smooth ride home. They would also listen to his commands on not eating Helios' cattle which consequently leads to their death. But on the other hand, Odysseus is able to plot and lead through the slaughter of the suitors without injury to him or his son, Telemachus.

    But why is Odysseus such a failure of a captain? The epic does not give clear textual evidence on the reasons for the crews lack of respect for their leader. But we can assume that Odysseus lost all respect over the period of the ten years that the epic takes place. As the crew watched their companions get eaten alive on the Cyclops' island, they had to be doubting Odysseus' leading power. When they ship landed at Circe's island, Odysseus saves his crew from the evil witch who turned them into pigs. This is a very respectable act. What isn't respectable is the fact that Odysseus stays with Circe for nine years before decided that he should take his crew home.

    Odysseus showed off his skills as a war leader during the slaughter of the suitors. This act of working together with his son shows that Odysseus still has his leading skills that were depicted in the Iliad.

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  42. john brosovichMarch 8, 2009 at 6:42 PM

    Odysseus is a good and a bad leader, but everything that has hapened to him has been his fault because of one main bad decision. This decision is the conversation Odysseus has with Polyphemus. instead of leaving the island being known as "nobody" he had to tell Polyphemus his real name, and because of this Polyphemus cursed Odysseus,and Poseiden and the other gods are all against him. If it was not for this one event Odysseus would have made it home to Ithaca with no problems. After this event Odysseus shows his ladership skills as much as he can, but because of the curse put on him by Polyphemus, the gods interfier with his journey home.

    Odysseus is a bad leader because he has a untrusting crew that he cannot control. at several times in the book, Odysseus's crew do someting that slows down the trip back to Ithaca. One thing they do is open the the bag of winds roght before they reach Ithaca and they have to start their journey all over again. This kind of lack of trust happens seveal times resulting in the death of everyone, but Odysseus, and this shows that he can be a terrible leader.

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  43. nick barnettMarch 11, 2009 at 7:37 AM

    In my opinion, Odysseus is a great leader that has been given a bad crew. He has proven his stealth and strategic intelligence in instances such as the trojan horse trick. He also knows how to get himself, and on some occasions his crew, out of tight spaces like the Polyphemus incident. He is an incredible warrior and fighter which he shows on various occasions including the battle with the suitors and he brings out his amazing strength when he strings the bow and shoots it through 12 axes, a feat that no one else could accomplish. All these qualities are very important to being a leader. Some might say rthat he is a better warrior than a leader which is somewhat true, but the qualities that he possesses go way beyond just a fighter. The fact that his crew all died was out of his contrtol. His crew was made up of a bunch pleasure seeking, greedy and unmannerly men who seemed to not deserve serving for Odysseus as they showed with the bag of winds given to them by the wind god, Aeolus, in order to help them get home. If they had not been greedy for gold and silver they would not have opened the bag and been blown back to the island which would have resulted in them getting home to Ithaca. Instead they did and experienced more hardship and death.

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  44. nick barnettMarch 11, 2009 at 7:37 AM

    In my opinion, Odysseus is a great leader that has been given a bad crew. He has proven his stealth and strategic intelligence in instances such as the trojan horse trick. He also knows how to get himself, and on some occasions his crew, out of tight spaces like the Polyphemus incident. He is an incredible warrior and fighter which he shows on various occasions including the battle with the suitors and he brings out his amazing strength when he strings the bow and shoots it through 12 axes, a feat that no one else could accomplish. All these qualities are very important to being a leader. Some might say rthat he is a better warrior than a leader which is somewhat true, but the qualities that he possesses go way beyond just a fighter. The fact that his crew all died was out of his contrtol. His crew was made up of a bunch pleasure seeking, greedy and unmannerly men who seemed to not deserve serving for Odysseus as they showed with the bag of winds given to them by the wind god, Aeolus, in order to help them get home. If they had not been greedy for gold and silver they would not have opened the bag and been blown back to the island which would have resulted in them getting home to Ithaca. Instead they did and experienced more hardship and death.

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  45. Danny LubApril 3, 2009 at 9:17 AM

    I believe Odysseus is at times a great leader and at times a bad leader. He is a good leader because of the trickery he used against Polythemus telling him is name is “Nobody”. The reason for Odysseus to not use his real name was to trick Polythemus later on in the story. Then a few days later Odysseus and his crew had Polythemus drink plenty of wine, and he became drunk. After this Odysseus sharpened a club and lit it on fire. He used this club to blind Polythemus by sticking it in his eye. Then the trick that he played earlier comes in play. The neighbors hear Polythemus yelling and ask what is the problem, and he responds, “Nobody is killing me”. So the neighbors actually thought nothing was wrong and went back to bed. However, when Odysseus is already at sea, he tries to spread his fame and tell Polythemus his real name which later on leads to Poseidon holding a grudge against him. In my mind Odysseus was a great leader when he was still in the cave, however he was a bad leader when he was trying to spread his fame.
    Then when Odysseus was in the land of Circe, he spent a year there with his crew and completely forgot about their final destination; Ithaca. The crew asked him to stay there and he agreed, which was bad leadership since he did not control his crew and lay down firm laws that they listen to everything he says.

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