Today in Griffin humanities we had a good discussion about book 16 and the factors that shape identity, and I'd like to provide a forum to consider it more fully. Simply put, why does Telemachus need to understand who Odysseus is in order to know who he himself is? How do our families (parents, siblings, family legacies) shape our sense of ourselves?
And, particularly considering the growing popularity of options like adoption, egg donation and surrogacy in our world today, how much is your identity defined by your genetic material and how much is it defined by how you're raised? What does the case of Telemachus suggest on the one hand, but also, what do you think?
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"As he approached, his father, Odysseus, rose to yield his seat, but the son on his part waved him back: Stay where you are, stranger." This is the first moment that we see Odysseus and Telemachus together in the book; they clearly do not know each other well at all. Odysseus has been away ever since Telemachus turned one years old and in that time space Telemachus would have had to grow as a person; without the influence of his father; this brings up the question of nature vs. nurture. In Telemachus' situation his father was not around long enough to influence his upbringing, but I think that Telemachus bases his actions upon what will and won't reach the expectations of his father; "he could almost see his magnificent father, here." So, the Odyssey that is ourselves wanting to impress our family and in that sense shaping our character; not our family forcefully shaping our character.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that came up a lot in our discussion (which was not my idea) is the idea of epithets. The epithet of most characters refer to their lineage and family, Telemachus is introduced as the son of Odysseus; which must cause Telemachus to raise the question of how much is a father is Odysseus to Telemachus; how much is Telemachus Odysseus' son?
I believe that especially in this time period, identity is more than a reflection of someone as a person. I believe that the people of this time felt the need to categorize people, and form their identities on the basis of who their family is or what social class they belong to. Soceity defines these expectations or generalities of what the people of a certain family or social class is like, and it ends up becomming the general identity of all of the people involved. Take Telemachus. He is supposed to be this strong royal son to the king who is ready to take the throne and responsibility of the whole state when it comes to him. People expect him to have this royal air almost because of his lineage and the expect this dominant prescence out of him, not only because he is royal but because he is a man and the son of Odysseus. Although it is not fair, women and men of this time are identified differently, especially on the basis that women are respected more for their physical appearance or for the dainty so called "womanly" tasks they can perform and men are looked as as these brawny figures. Society gives these standards to people and people can create their own identity and be recognized for themselves, but its like they must overpower the already looming identity that is given to them by society depending on where they "belong" or where society places them. Its like they must prove themselves not only as a fitting member of the group, but their own memorable person who is recognized for more than what they were pushed into.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I believe that who people are is not determined by genetics, but how a person was brought up. Having genetics from your father and from your mother (or sperm donor etc) is a small portion of who you become to be. Thought genetics determines what you look like, I do not believe that it determines who you are on the inside (accept in the literal tense). The way that you are brought up establishes who you are, by making you mean, nice, tough, etc. For instance, if you were brought up in a family that was poor you may become more conservative, whereas if you were brought up into a family who was rich, you may tend to be less conservative. Another example is if you were brought up into a family that had little responsibilities for you as a kid, you may become less responsible as an adult. I also believe that events that take place in one’s life time play a major role in determining who you are as an adult. For instance in book 16, Telemachus was reluctant in believing that Odysseus was his father. This neglect could have been a result of the long term absence that Odysseus placed on his son. This absence shaped Telemachus into believing that his father was gone, and caused him to accept the fact that his father was never coming back. This can be related to modern time in that a boy, who lost his father at a young age, becomes to disbelieve that his father will ever return. Alas, his father returns to him after he is grown; the boy does not believe it.
ReplyDeleteI disagree strongly with what Mr. Naft has said. Although how you are raised is a strong part of who you become, I believe that who your parents are/were is an even stronger part. You can be brought up to act a certain way and believe certain things, but ultimately once you leave the house you don’t HAVE TO FOLLOW ANY OF THAT! I believe that because Mr. Naft knows and is raised by both of his parents, he wouldn't be able to say "that who people are is not determined by genetics, but how a person was brought up". I am only raised and brought up by my mother, even though I know both of my parents. My mom sets values and rules for the house hold to follow, and I personally can say that many of my terrible in life have come from me NOT following how my mother wants me to be raised. Many people in my family, including my father, have said that this is because I have the exact same "don’t care" personality. Personality traits are stronger than any values someone tries to force on you. "You can take the man out of the jungle, but you can’t take the jungle out of the man." In simple words, you can adopt or donate eggs either way they will have multiple traits of their biological parents. It’s not only personality that can drive someone to look for their biological parents, but similarity in looks as well. "My heart tells me to come right out and say I've never seen such likeness, neither in man nor woman- I'm amazed at the sight. To the life he's like the son of great Odysseus, surely he's Telemachus!" Growing up hearing and being told things such as that passage maybe annoying, especially if everyone knows your father, but you.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that genetics are a blue print to physical traits and how you were raised is based on your character. The way you were raised reflects your inner personality. It helps define how you act, think and dress. Your parents also help develop your character by choosing your ethnic background, your religion, your neighborhood, and your climate. The way genetics defines you is based on your traits such as eye color, skin tone, and hair color. Your parents contribute through the process of gene picking (sperm donor etc.). But unlike how you were raised, genes cannot be developed over time.
ReplyDeleteWith haven’t seeing Telemachus in over ten years, Odysseus recognizes Telemachus presence through unusual occurrence that happened. ‘From inside Odysseus noticed the pack’s quiet welcome, noticed the light tread of footsteps too and turned to Eumaeus quickly, winged a word: “Eumaeus, here comes a friend of yours, I’d say. Someone you know, at least. The pack’s not barking, must be fawning around him I can hear his footfall.” Telemachus first refers his father as a stranger. But as Telemachus approaches Odysseus he referred him to a stranger. “Stay where you are, stranger. I know we can find another seat somewhere, here on our farm, and here’s the man to fetch it.” I believe this tension is do because possibly Telemachus doesn’t believe Odysseus is really there, in front of him. But what surprised me the most about this was that Odysseus still recognized his son after leaving at one years old to go to war.
Genetics are only your physical traits, not your drive, not your character, not your true self. Genes make up your body, not your soul. You are made up of how you are raised. How your parents raise you, eventually turns out to be who, and what you actually become. You are a spitting image of your parents (usually). You are more from your parents, but your country is your home, so are you from you country or your parents? I think it is a mix, because you are from your home beign your country, but your parents, raise you , and care for you and protect you trhough the first stages of your life. But when you go to battle you go for your king and country. To protect where your are from. But also you are protecting your family you fathers land your children. So where are you from your home country, or your parents. It can be really either. It is based on one persons view. And you cannot force your idea on others. It is all your idea, it is your decision not anyone elses. You country is where you are from, but you are from your parents DNA.
ReplyDeleteI believe identity is very important in the Greek time because if you go through the back of the book under all of the characters it has a description that says who they are and who their parents are. Knowing who your parents are is very important in this time and knowing about where you came from as a person. As in knowing whom your parents are and how you came into this world. This is very important to telemuchus because he has only heard things about his father and he has never met him the only male figures that he has had in his life are the suitors. Also in our class we talked about epithets which is the description before a persons name and this is used allot in this epic. Almost before every name there is an epithet and this shows that a description of someone is very important and also how there body features plays into it. For example when they talk about menelaus they say the red haired king or something like that and people are represented for what they do and from where they came from. Identity is very important.
ReplyDeleteAs we learned in biology class, you inherit your traits based on a combination of ur parents. This causes your children to be somewhat of the same thing as you. If the pattern continues for Telemachus and he is like his father, he will most likely grow up to be a very wise and strong warrior and leader which will help him slaughter the suitors. The only problem is that although he has what it takes, he needs to realize this and become more of a man before he can take on these traits. He needs to do this by finding his legacy and learning the ways of his father so that he can develop these traits that are lurking in his DNA. Plus, his father was basically a hero to him and if he knows that he can actually be just like his father than that will motivate him to bring out these traits.
ReplyDeleteAs we have learned in biology with Ms Orr, you get traits from both of your parents. Yet during the Homeric Age this was not possible to identify. So the only way Telemachus can get the best information about who his father was and what exactly his characteristics are by asking his fathers' best friends. As he goes to Sparta to talk to king Menelaus, Menelaus mentions how Telemachus looks very much like Odysseus on line 164 "now that you mention it, I see the likeness too... Odysseus' feet were like the boy's, his hands as well, his glancing eyes, his head, and the fine shock of hair." Here Telemachus gets to hear for the second time how he resembles his father after he also heard that from King Nestor who is also very good friends with Odysseus. So as Telemachus goes on and finds out that he truly is the son of great Odysseus, by the fact that he looks very much like him. Telemachus is completely different during this time in the book, he is insecure and lacks respect from the suitors. While Odysseus as we find out later on is very full of himself and almost everyone around him has respect for who he is. So really genetics only make up what a person looks like but the idea of the way a human thinks and acts can never be taught it is something natural.
ReplyDeleteThe question regarding the extent of genetic and parental/circumstantial influence on one’s identity is a complex one. Some such as Aaron Naft might say that it’s not based on genetics at all while others like Nya, believe that genetics determine most of a person’s identity. Telemachus needs to understand who Odysseus is in order to know who he himself is because he needs to determine whether or not he wants to be like Odysseus or maybe he wants to take a different path in life than his father. Touching on Jenna’s point, Telemachus has the option to become the next ruler of his father’s state since he’s the son of the royal Odysseus. However his decisions and identity could not have been shaped by the way he was brought up because Odysseus was absent most of his life, so Telemachus never had the chance to get to know or bond with his father. In Book 16, Telemachus lets his masculine, military strong side show as well as his witty intelligence. In my eyes, he resembles his father because their opinion on the suitors’ doing and plans to get revenge on the unwanted guests, are very much alike. Telemachus also reminds me of Odysseus when he lies to Penelope by failing to mention the fact that he has indeed seen Odysseus in Eumaeus’s hut. I can personally say that I was probably raised differently than most others since I come from Russia. The differences between the cultures and the way parents raise their children in my home country and America, are very clear to me. The way we’re brought up and in which circumstances affect our identity almost as much as genetics do. However, in Telemachus’s case, genes account for how much him and Odysseus are alike since he could not have been affected by the way Odysseus raised him.
ReplyDeleteI believe that one is not defined by their genetics but rather how they are raised and the events that happen to them. In the world today one can go to a sperm bank and decide what genetics they want the father of their child to have. The child’s character comes from how he was brought up and situations that he has found himself. A child can have athletic genes but that does not necessarily make him an athlete unless he pursues it. In Telemanchus’s case he was raised in a less than ideal situation which led him to be a weak and helpless boy, but after an important event in his life, which was Athena intervening, he soon became a strong man. If this event did not happen in his life, I believe he would have stayed a weak boy. He grew up in an environment where his mother’s greedy, selfish suitors were all around him, and his mother was never there to encourage him. This made him stay in the background, not letting him become a man. I think like anyone Telemanchus wants to know who he come from and is related to, especially when it is a man as great as Odysseus.
ReplyDeleteIn The Odyssey, it seems as though genetic make up determines a person’s character, and that how one was raised does not have a big influence on their life, but it does make a small impact. The key example of this in The Odyssey is Telemachus. In the first four books of The Odyssey, or the Telemachiad, we meet Telemachus. When we first meet Telemachus, he is very immature, but when Telemachus meets Athena, she helps him mature and she leads him throughout his years to becoming an adult. This is an example of the small influence of how one is raised and their parents because Telemachus was only raised by Penelope so some could argue that the reason he did not mature was because he did not have a father to show him how to be a man. It does not seem as though the way one was raised was a big influence because Athena, who was not a part of Telemachus’s childhood, helps him to mature, proving that even if you were not taught something as a young child, you can learn it as a young adult. In this case the example would be Telemachus maturing.
ReplyDeleteThe Odyssey suggests that a person’s genetic makeup has a bigger influence on their character, because Telemachus acts just like Odysseus, even though Odysseus left to fight the Trojan war when Telemachus was very young. Throughout The Odyssey, we see many instances when Telemachus acts the same way Odysseus would have in that situation. An example of this is in book sixteen, lines 209 through lines 228. In these lines, Odysseus tells Telemachus who he is. At first Telemachus does not believe that it is his father, and he is skeptical and he has disbelief. The way in which Telemachus reacted to Odysseus introducing himself is similar to the way in which Odysseus acted when Calypso told him he could leave her island. This proves that genetic makeup determines a person’s character because Telemachus had never met Odysseus, yet they acted in a very similar fashion.
Although The Odyssey makes one believe that genetic makeup has a larger influence on one’s character than how one was raised, I feel that in today’s world, how one is raised has a bigger influence than genetic makeup. Everyone’s DNA is 99.9 percent identical. If genetic makeup determined a person’s character, then everyone would have 99.9 percent the same character. This is certainly not how our world is today. Today, every person has a uniquely different character; therefore I believe that how one is raised has a greater influence on character than one’s genetic makeup.
In some ways Telemachus is like an adopted child in this sense. He grew up not knowing where he came from. Like most adopted children do, he wants to find out who his birth father is. Knowing what they look like, how they act, and what their personality is helps children understand who they are. This need for information helps a child mature and gives them a sense of confidence.
ReplyDeleteI think that the type of family a person comes from says a lot about who they will grow up to be. For example, people whose parents are very smart tend to get very high grades and work very hard in school, and generally have another activity like sports or instruments that they excel at. I do not think that genetic material affects one’s identity. I think that for some kids knowing who their biological parents makes them feel more secure and confident about themselves, but I think that what kind of family one is raised in affects their identity.
I believe that in the odyssey by homer, there are 4 main contributors to your identity. They are you social class, your family history, your individual make up, including genetic, physical, and personality, and finally, your talents. The first contribution to a person's identity is their social class. Their are countless examples of this throughout the odyssey. The first is with menelaus. He is recognized as the red-haired king. Menelaus is recognized as that, the king, this is his identity, and it includes his social class. Another example of this is with Eumeaus, the loyal swineherd. His identity is his job, a swineherd. These are just two of many examples of how someone's identity is their proffession. The second contributor to someones identity is your family history. An example of this is w/ telemachus, who hasn't really done anything successful in his life, but is an extremely important individual just b/c he has an important family (odysseus is a king, making him very important). The third contributor to someone's identity is their physical appearance/genetic makeup. An example of this is w/ circe, as she is referred to as the nymph w/ lovely braids. Her identity is her physical appearance. This is just one of the many examples of this throughout the odyssey. Fianlly, someones talents are a contributor to their identity. For example, achilles is known as one of the greatest warriors of all time. These four factors are what make up an individuals identity.
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