Zeus complains in Book I of the Odyssey:
Ah how shameless--the way these mortals blame the gods.
From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,
but they themselves, with their own reckless ways,
compound their pains beyond their proper share (1.37-40).
What is Zeus saying? Is he right? Whose fault is it anyway that Odysseus has been wandering for ten years -- that the suitors are eating him out of house and home?
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ReplyDeleteZeus is right for the context, however it is not Odysseus's fault that he's been wandering for 10 years. It is Poseidon's fault that he has been wandering and that suitors are eating him out of house and home, but if you look at sacrifice and other traditions, mortals often times do blame the gods. The gods are thought to be all-powerful and therefore they shoulder the blame for mortals. Essentially gods have the power to change fate, however they don’t create it. They lack control over what is going to happen, but they can aid in having such a thing happen or prevent a certain thing. This helps to draw that conclusion that gods are merely cushions for when humans mess up, a form of an easy access to not blaming oneself and saying that it was the gods. Often in ancient times people would claim that gods were in control of everything, especially things that mortals have no control over such as natural disasters, sickness, and death. By observing that you can thus draw that the conclusion that gods are an excuse, rather than something to be held in reverence.
ReplyDeleteZeus is saying that mortals blame the gods of problems when they caused it themselves. In the Odyssey, Zeus is right about the crewmates of Odysseus, but wrong about Odysseus. The crewmates caused many, if not all, of the problems that they and Odysseus faced. For example, when the crewmates were near the cattle of the sun, they were reckless, and without thinking of the consequences, they ate the cattle. This caused Odysseus to not have a crew and become lonely. Odysseus himself was too intelligent to act recklessly. The question about whose fault that Odysseus has been wandering for ten years and that the suitors have been trying to get Ithaca can be answered with many people. If Odysseus did not choose to go to Troy, he would not have to leave his child. Even though the Achaeans would have lost, he wouldn’t be wandering and his family wouldn’t be in such a wreck. After he went to Troy and defeated them, it was the crew’s fault for being so reckless. One example is the cattle of the sun, described above. Polyphemus was also a cause of Odysseus wandering for ten years because if he was not there, or if he did not want to eat Odysseus and his crew, then Odysseus would not have blinded Polyphemus. Because of this, Poseidon was mad and tried to keep Odysseus from going back, which means that Poseidon also caused some of this. If Poseidon would just forgive Odysseus, he would be home. Many other things also caused Odysseus to wander for ten years, such as Calypso, for capturing him for nine years. If the suitors did not try to get Ithaca, there would be no problem at home. But then again, if Odysseus did not leave or if none of the problems happened, the suitors wouldn’t be there. In conclusion, there is not one person that caused Odysseus to wander for ten years and the suitors to try to get Ithaca, but almost everybody.
ReplyDeleteIn this excerpt, Zeus is saying that men need to be accountable for their own actions. He is saying that they are too quick to blame the Gods, even when they are warned ahead of time not to do something. He is saying that humans always blame the gods for wrongdoing when they bring it on themselves. I think that in some ways what Zeus is saying is accurate, and in other ways it isn't. The Gods build themselves up to be these almighty powerful beings that can control and influence the mortal world, yet when faced with the responsibility of a problem, they step back like they had nothing to do with any of it. On the other hand, the gods don't have complete control over humans, and ultimately, men usually make the final decision on their actions (however heavily influenced by the gods they may be). Humans blame the Gods for bad things happening to them, and the Gods blame the humans for not always listening to them. Mankind needs to be accountable for their actions, but when they don't have the ability to have the privacy of their own thoughts and deciding things for themselves without outside divine influence, it poses a problem as to who's fault it really is that the humans are in the mess they always find themselves in. Do you blame the Gods who are always playing a part in the craziness, being either to help, to meddle, or to hinder the person, or do you blame the man for going his own way. As far as Odysseus's wanderings, I think both himself and Poseidon are to blame. Originally, it's Odysseus's fault because he blinded Polyphemus in the first place. The 10 years of exile and wandering I blame on Poseidon, because he can't get over it and is obstructing Odysseus from getting home. Because Odysseus can't get home, chaos is breaking out at with the suitors and poor Telemachus who cannot get control. Arriving back at the idea of the God's influence/interference, Athena plays a big role in helping both Telemachus and Odysseus in books 1, 5 and 6. She has a big part in guiding Telemachus to where he needs to go, and getting Odysseus off Calypso's island, along with the help of Zeus and Hermes as well. Ultimately however, I believe that the cause for Telemachus being "eaten out of his house and home", is due to Poseidon, keeping Odysseus from arriving home because of a long past grudge. It may also be the fault of Telemachus for having no backbone and being able to drive the suitors out and stand up for himself and his mother, or it could even be the fault of Odysseus for starting the whole thing in the first place by going to Troy and leaving his family in the first place, as Anthony Hsieh said above.
ReplyDeleteI agree whole heartedly with Colleen; I think that the gods do boast their superior power and then shirk from accepting any responsibility. As for the direct causes of Odysseus being stuck at home, I don’t think that one can really pinpoint any exact reason. For example, one could say that it is Odysseus’s fault that he is stuck at sea because he blinded Pholyphemsus. But was it really his fault? What if Pholyphemsus didn’t try to interfere with Odysseus? Or if he had never been born? Could one say that is was originally Pholyphemsus’s fault, or even Thoosa’s (Pholyphemsus’s Mother) fault? I say no. Just like in our world, the world of the gods is so human-like that one cannot ever find an exact reason. If one thing had been changed, the outcome might have been completely different. Therefore one cannot pinpoint an exact reason for a complicated occurrence like Odysseus’s prolonged journey home.
ReplyDeleteOn a separate note, the quote by Zeus brings up an excellent point –how much do the gods control free will? This quote implies that the Gods cannot control what the humans do, just the forces like the seas and winds to either help or hurt the people. But, when Athena is trying to help Odysseus to become noticed by the girls, she interferes with the princesses’ actions. On line 6.23-27 Athena makes the Princess throw the ball and shout out. Through where I have read, Athena was never punished or reprimanded for this, which implies that this act was approved of by the gods. So, if the gods can interfere with people’s free will and have it go unnoticed, then why does Zeus think that the humans actions are all their own? Just something to think about…
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ReplyDeleteI don't think that as a general principle, we cannot ascribe blame towards one specific individual or a group of individuals. The entire blame is not Poseidon's, the rest of the gods, Odysseus's, Telemachus's, etc.
Poseidon seems to carry on this grudge with Odysseus that he just won't give up on. If we go back, it is clear that because of this vendetta between Poseidon and Odysseus [the latter being helpless being only a demigod and the former being a complete and very powerful god who can exercise any or all control over the latter], Odysseus is forced to wander for years. Had Odysseus not been annoyed insofar as to cause him to become shipwrecked onto islands, he would have had a peaceful journey home. What was the cause of this? Odysseus's killing of Polyphemus.
Through what I have read in this book, the exact details aren't exactly described, though I may be wrong. After Odysseus came back from Troy, he was stuck on Polyphemus's island. In order to save himself and attempt to be noble and just and to save his crewmates (to whom I guess we could ascribe this obligation considering that it would be a logical presumption to say that the crewmates are serving him and expect at least some level of safety and because it is a fundamental obligation of one individual to save another when in the power to do so), Odysseus kills Polyphemus. If he hadn't they would have all been eaten and Odysseus would have been dead.
Poseidon, however, unilaterally views this scenario and attacks Odysseus. Can we therefore logically throw the book at Poseidon? No. Why? Since Poseidon was essentially stuck in this situation. Sure, he may be a god, but to the extent that we "know" him as a character in this book, it is not that he is rejecting the other side of the story - it seems that he just isn't able to "see" it - something that is beyond his own control.
Blame can also be added to Zeus. It is clear that Zeus and the other gods put together are much stronger than Poseidon. While Poseidon is away, they are able to manipulate the scenario. If they are so powerful, why don't they just take on Poseidon? What is holding them back? Shame? Possibility of getting into a domestic fight which would reflect poorly on the benefit upon society (although this benefit is questioned by this point already)? Thus, we can ascribe some blame to the other Gods.
Odysseus himself can be given some blame for going into Polyphemus's island in the first place. Sure, he might have been washed upon it by some external force, possibly Poseidon himself. To the extent that he is going to blind a cyclops however, thereby debilitating him as the cyclops only has one eye, Odysseus has effectively taken away the life of a living thing. Furthermore, he lies to this cyclops, leaving a reader open to emotions to pity the cyclops. These all do indeed add up although the cyclops threatened Odysseus. There must have been another way...right? But this is another debate on its own, as well as another point I intimated above regarding the true potence and "sight" of the Gods (Where Poseidon is unable to see what's going on while he's chilling in Ethiopia).
To wrap up, I don't think that we can throw all the blame at everyone. The fact is that its shared. The fact that Zeus etc. are gods and that they shed control over mortals such as Odysseus, it seems they can get away with it as they are unaccountable to any higher body. The mortals can't get away with attempting to getting rid of their blame because the Gods are sitting right above them waiting for them to do it. So, it becomes clear that it is no one and everyone's fault - you can't point out a single person and use him/her as a scapegoat for this entire scenario.
DISCLAIMER: The views contained in the following passage may or may not reflect the opinions of the author.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that as a general principle, we cannot ascribe blame towards one specific individual or a group of individuals. The entire blame is not Poseidon's, the rest of the gods, Odysseus's, Telemachus's, etc.
Poseidon seems to carry on this grudge with Odysseus that he just won't give up on. If we go back, it is clear that because of this vendetta between Poseidon and Odysseus [the latter being helpless being only a demigod and the former being a complete and very powerful god who can exercise any or all control over the latter], Odysseus is forced to wander for years. Had Odysseus not been annoyed insofar as to cause him to become shipwrecked onto islands, he would have had a peaceful journey home. What was the cause of this? Odysseus's killing of Polyphemus.
Through what I have read in this book, the exact details aren't exactly described, though I may be wrong. After Odysseus came back from Troy, he was stuck on Polyphemus's island. In order to save himself and attempt to be noble and just and to save his crewmates (to whom I guess we could ascribe this obligation considering that it would be a logical presumption to say that the crewmates are serving him and expect at least some level of safety and because it is a fundamental obligation of one individual to save another when in the power to do so), Odysseus kills Polyphemus. If he hadn't they would have all been eaten and Odysseus would have been dead.
Poseidon, however, unilaterally views this scenario and attacks Odysseus. Can we therefore logically throw the book at Poseidon? No. Why? Since Poseidon was essentially stuck in this situation. Sure, he may be a god, but to the extent that we "know" him as a character in this book, it is not that he is rejecting the other side of the story - it seems that he just isn't able to "see" it - something that is beyond his own control.
Blame can also be added to Zeus. It is clear that Zeus and the other gods put together are much stronger than Poseidon. While Poseidon is away, they are able to manipulate the scenario. If they are so powerful, why don't they just take on Poseidon? What is holding them back? Shame? Possibility of getting into a domestic fight which would reflect poorly on the benefit upon society (although this benefit is questioned by this point already)? Thus, we can ascribe some blame to the other Gods.
Odysseus himself can be given some blame for going into Polyphemus's island in the first place. Sure, he might have been washed upon it by some external force, possibly Poseidon himself. To the extent that he is going to blind a cyclops however, thereby debilitating him as the cyclops only has one eye, Odysseus has effectively taken away the life of a living thing. Furthermore, he lies to this cyclops, leaving a reader open to emotions to pity the cyclops. These all do indeed add up although the cyclops threatened Odysseus. There must have been another way...right? But this is another debate on its own, as well as another point I intimated above regarding the true potence and "sight" of the Gods (Where Poseidon is unable to see what's going on while he's chilling in Ethiopia).
To wrap up, I don't think that we can throw all the blame at everyone. The fact is that its shared. The fact that Zeus etc. are gods and that they shed control over mortals such as Odysseus, it seems they can get away with it as they are unaccountable to any higher body. The mortals can't get away with attempting to getting rid of their blame because the Gods are sitting right above them waiting for them to do it. So, it becomes clear that it is no one and everyone's fault - you can't point out a single person and use him/her as a scapegoat for this entire scenario.
There is no definite yes or no answer to this question. I think that Zeus is right for saying that the mortals should not complain and blame the gods for all of their problems. The mortals should be accountable and responsible for their actions and not so reliant on the gods for help. If the gods have forewarned the mortals like they previously have, then the people have been too quick to blame the gods for everything. At the same time, I also think that the mortals have the right to complain and blame the gods as much as they like since the gods have made it clear to the humans that they are the almighty divine ones that are in control. Although the gods cannot directly control their actions, they have a lot of influence on their lives. They have been the ones to have major influences on the selectively few humans they choose to either help, meddle, or hurt. Through different types of manifestation and disguises, the divine gods interfere with the mortals so that the gods can play out and watch their "soap opera" they have created down on earth. In order to have their way, the gods often appear in the people's dreams, visions, or dressed as regular people in disguise so that the gods can create the situations that end up in whatever way the gods wanted. With all of the influence and involvement in the mortal's thoughts, feelings, and actions, it is hard for the mortal's not to blame them for what happens because it all leads back to the gods doing.
ReplyDeleteAs for whose fault it is that Odysseus has been wandering for ten years, I think that although both Odysseus and Poseidon are to blame, it is mostly Poseidon's fault. First, Odysseus should not have blinded Polyphemus to begin with. That was a mistake that Odysseus should be held accountable for and punished. However, I do not think that Poseidon's idea of punishment of wandering for ten years fits the crime. I think that Odysseus's punishment should be about 3 years of wandering or something a little less extreme. Having to wander for ten years while the suitors are taking over his house is not an acceptable punishment and that is entirely Poseidon's fault. It is also Poseidon's fault that Odysseus's son Telemachus is left in an out of control chaotic statewith the suitors taking over the house. Poseidon needs to get over the fact that his son was blinded by Odysseus and move on with his life. Poseidon should give up his fight and agree with the other gods that have taken pity on Odysseus and feel that he should be released.
Zeus claims that the mortals blame the gods for their the problems when they caused the problems themselves. In the epic, Zeus is right about Odysseus’s crewmates but wrong about Odysseus himself. The crewmates caused many of the problems that Odysseus faced. I believe that it was Odysseus’s fault that he was wandering for 10 years. If he had not chosen to travel to Troy, he would have not left his child. Even though the Achaeans would’ve lost, he wouldn’t be wandering and his family wouldn’t have been in such a mess. Polyphemus was also a cause of him wandering for a decade because if he was not there, or if he didn’t want to eat Odysseus and his crew, then Odysseus wouldn’t have blinded Polyphemus. This then causes Poseidon to become angry and he tried to keep Odysseus from going home. This means that Poseidon also is a reason that Odysseus wandered for 10 years.
ReplyDeleteIn the quote, Zeus is saying mortals are to blame for there own actions, yet they blame the gods for their misfortune. I believe that the mortals are in fact to blame. They curse the gods because the gods tell certain people that they should or should not do. Some people choose to not listen to the gods advice, an example would be in the case of Aegisthus. He was warned not to kill Orestes and "court" his wife, but he chose not to listen to the gods, and was cursed. He blamed the gods for his misfortune, when actually the blame was his own.
ReplyDeleteWhen Zues says this in Book 1 of the Odyssey... He is saying that the earthly mortals blame the gods for all of their problems, and that they simply accredit all events and happenings to the gods. He is also saying that the gods do indeed cause pain in the lives of mortals, but that it is THEIR fault, and that they only have themselves and their reckless actions to blame for why the gods must get involved. The pain mortals go through in The Odyssey is simply a consequence of their behavior and the gods just happen to be the punishers. I strongly agree with both Joshua Geezy, and Corey when they state that it is in fact, humanity's fault and that Zues is correct.
ReplyDeleteWhen concerning Odysseus' struggles returning home I believe that its is 100%, no question, hands-down Odysseus' fault because he caused Poseidon to prevent him from reaching Ithaca. Odysseus made the mistake of waiting in Polyphemus' cave without any knowledge of his background, and then got revenge on him for smashing six of his crewmates upon the floor, spilling their brains, and eating them by stabbing his one eye (haha), blinding him, and then making the biggest mistake yet which is telling him his real name out of celebration and steam-blowing upon his escape. Odysseus has only himself to blame, messing with a powerful gods son. Poseidon had no choice but to oblige his son's requests.
Zeus is saying that mortals never take responsibility for their actions and blame someone else, mainly the gods and goddesses. I think that Zeus is right in circumstances such as Oresis’s case. In Odysseus’s case however I believe that it is his and Poseidon’s fault. The earthquake god’s punishment for Odysseus blinding Poseidon’s son was too personal and therefore it lasted too long. Poseidon’s actions not only led to the torment of Odysseus but since Poseidon would not let Odysseus return to Ithaca, Poseidon also caused the problem of the suitors eating Odysseus’s family out of house and home. Although Poseidon was at fault here Odysseus did blind his son for self protection. Nevertheless the reason these actions were Odysseus’s and he has to take responsibility for them, but in the end his punishment was too great for his actions.
ReplyDeleteAs the blog posted states, Zeus believes that mortals are responsible for their own actions. To a certain degree he is right. Mortals control what they do most of the time, but at other times there are exceptions. Sometimes mortals have to do certain things because of previous events. So their actions can be justified and the blame can sometimes be placed on someone else.
ReplyDeleteThe ultimate blame can be placed on Zeus for two reasons:1.He oversees everything;2.He is trying to keep a balance between the views of the gods and Poseidon by letting Poseidon hold Odysseus back. Zeus is depicted as the main god with the ability to determine and control what events take place. Therefore Zeus can send and protect Odysseus if he wanted to. The blame cannot be completely put on Poseidon because as a less important god than Zeus, his actions do not have to lead to final consequences. Zeus tries to keep a good relationship with Poseidon and with the gods at the same time. He tries to satisfy Poseidon by allowing him to have his "fun" with Odysseus, and he tries to satisfy the other gods by helping Odysseus out of some of those situations. Instead of trying to satisfy everyone, Zeus should just decide what he wants to do. Yes, Zeus has to make sure everyone is content but whatever he says goes, so he is the ultimate reason that Odysseus is still wandering.
Within the passage Zeus is saying that mortals do not take responsibility for their own actions and therefore blame it on someone else. These someones happen to be the gods and goddesses. This gives reason for the gods to feel irritated with mortals because the gods offer them advice,the mortals do not take it, and then the mortals blame the gods for things gone wrong. While Zeus is right with his statement, it is only true in some cases. For example, Odysseus. Odysseus has been held captive at Calypso's island for many years, longing to see his wife and son, but the gods did not intervene because he was another mortal who defied the gods. However, Odysseus had not defied the gods in any way, but did blind the cyclops, who was the son of Poseidon. This angered Poseidon and gave reason for Poseidon to be angry with Odysseus but not the other gods. Poseidon's hatred towards Odysseus influenced the other gods to not rescue Odysseus and send him on his was home. Ultimately, in some cases Zeus statement holds true but in others it does not.
ReplyDeleteWho to blame for Odysseus's wandering for ten years is difficult to say. It could be said that it is Zeus's fault that he has been left wandering because in the end all things are controlled by Zeus and are his decision. However, one could say that it is Poseidon's fault that Odysseus has been left wandering because of Poseidon's grudge he is holding against Odysseus. The grudge that Poseidon is holding was for Odysseus blinding his cyclops son. This grudge may have influenced Zeus's actions to help Odysseus because of what he had done, although what Odysseus did was purely in self defense. It can be narrowed down to Zeus and Poseidon to blame for Odysseus's wandering for ten years and the suitors eating him out of house and home due to the strong cases they present, but one can not be blamed for sure.
“From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,
ReplyDeletebut they themselves, with their own reckless ways,” (1: 38-39).
In Zeus’ complaint, he states that gods play a great role in the happenings on earth; however, they are not the only ones to blame. Zeus says that humans should blame themselves and their own “reckless ways” before lamenting to the gods about their ill fortune. All in all, Zeus articulates that the gods do control a great portion of events on earth, but the gods can only do so much and the rest is up to one’s own decisions.
This passage also has an extraordinary similarity to the problem of evil in the Hebrew Bible. This problem asks: why would a benevolent god allow evil to happen? For the most part, the various gods in The Odyssey are benevolent and cause evil for an assortment of reasons. One can conclude three possible solutions to that problem…
1. It is punishment for misdoings
2. It is God’s decision and a mystery to all but him
3. It is a test from God to measure one’s devotion and purity
These three solutions all relate back to The Odyssey and the possible reasons for Odysseus’ hardship. It could be a form of punishment from Poseidon for blinding his son, or his suffering could be due to the gods’ motives - reasons that are too grand for anyone but other divinities to comprehend. Finally, the calamities that have befallen him could simply be a test of his devotion to his family and piety to the gods. In conclusion, like the problem of evil, there is no definitive reason to why one suffers; however, one can speculate that it was either Odysseus’ recklessness that was the foundation for his misery, or that of the gods and their numerous intentions.
Zeus believes that humans blame the gods for their sufferings but truly they themselves have caused their own sufferings. This passage illustrates how mankind has acted for hundreds of years in that no one is willing to take responsibility for anything. It is always someone else's fault and then one ends up in circles. The humans blame the gods for the reason behind their suffering while the gods blame the humans for their suffering. Yes, the humans did something wrong, but yes, the gods are punishing them. I believe it is both the fault of the mortals and immortals. Take Adam and Eve for example. Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the snake and at the same time God himself is being blamed. All are to be blamed for this act. Adam ate it, Eve convinced him, the snake convinced her, and God wasn't clear enough. Odysseus wouldn't have been punished if he didn't blind a god, causing himself pain. But the gods were the ones that actually brought pain onto Odysseus. I don’t think it would be fair to put the blame on one person. Zeus is only keeping the order and in forcing punishment because without punishment people could do whatever they wanted to do. Zeus has also been wronged and so he needs his revenge. Odysseus cannot be blamed alone either because he wouldn’t have been punished if it weren’t for the gods. However, its Odysseus’ fault for doing something wrong but it is the Gods fault for punishing him. It takes two.
ReplyDeleteZeus is saying that humans cause problems, then blame the gods for them, which is true in some cases. In the Odysseus' case, the fault lies with Polyphemus. Polyphemus is the cyclopean son of Poseidon, the sea god. During his journey home, Odysseus stops on the cyclops island. There, he and his crew wander into Polyphemus's cave, where they encounter the cyclops. Polyphemus locks them inside the cave and eats several members of Odysseus's crew. To escape, Odysseus stabs Polyphemus's eye with a stake to blind him. Though it is Polyphemus's fault he got blinded, he
ReplyDelete"bellowed out to lord Poseidon, thrusting his arms to the starry skies, and prayed, 'Hear me- Poseidon, god of the sea-blue mane who rocks the earth- If I am really your son and you claim to be my father- come, grant that Odysseus, raider of cities, Laertes' son who makes his home in Ithaca, never reaches home. Or if he's fated to see his people again and reach his well-built house and his own native country, let him come home late and a broken man- all shipmates lost, alone in a stranger's ship- and let him find a world of pain at home!'" (9.584-595). Poseidon listened to Polyphemus, which led to many of Odysseus's troubles. Therefore, in the case of Odysseus, Zeus is wrong.
Zues is saying that the Gods are not responsible for a person’s life. Although the Gods do affect some of the parts of a person’s life, I do not think they are the ones to blame. In fact, I would say that the people themselves are the ones to blame. This is because the Gods treat people in a way depending on how the person presents them self. For example, as we read earlier in The Ramayana, Rama was treated very well by the Gods. The gods would give him gifts and guide him through situations that he may struggle with by himself. Additionally, they gave him advantages in order to win battles that he fought. However, the great Ravana was treated very differently by the Gods. The Gods made a plan to reincarnate Vishnu in order to defeat Ravana. This is not because the Gods chose one day not to like Ravana but it is because Ravana did cruel and inhumane things that the Gods disliked. By abusing the power that Ravana had he turned the Gods against himself. This is much like the case in The Odyssey. When a person does something that the Gods don’t like they punish them. However, because Odysseus was a very righteous man who still cried for his wife, the Gods liked him. Odysseus’s action encouraged the Gods to be on his side and help him out. However, Odysseus has ended up stranded on Calypso’s island not because he is a bad person but because he angered the God Poseidon. When he blinded Poseidon’s son’s eye, Poseidon held a grudge and decided that he would create a problem in Odysseus’s life. Although Odysseus did not intentionally mess with Poseidon, Poseidon felt that it was necessary to repay Odysseus with an unpleasant couple of years.
ReplyDeleteZeus is saying that the mortals fail to take responsibility for their actions, and when a consequence they don't like comes their way, they blame the Gods. He says the humans think their miseries are caused only by the gods. I think it depends on the situation whether it is right or not, as the question can go either way. Sometimes it is true that Gods purposely work against mortals, take Poseidon. Although he is only trying to get revenge on Odysseus for blinding his son, he still is prolonging Odysseus's return to Ithica, ultimately interfering on his life and causing his miseries. In my opinion, it is both the God's fault and Odysseus's fault that he has not returned home. Although he had Poseidon, a very powerful god, working against him, he did not make any visible effort to leave the island, he just assumed he would not be freed.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading further into the book, it seems to appear that Odysseus is not as good as he appears to be. This changes the fact that Odysseus an exception to Zeus's words, because really, he is just like the other mortals, coming crimes, and blaming the gods for unfortunate events. This comes to knowledge when Odysseus tells his story to Alcinous and his people. He starts the retelling of his journey long before he was held captive on Calypso's island, which revealed Odysseus's deception, and trickery against others. For example, Odysseus stole the flock of sheep from the Polyphemus, after he blinded him which was an unnecessary action. Again ofter he steals the sheep and his ship is sailing away he taunts the monster which was again unnecessary. This proves Odysseus to not be the perfect individual who could do no wrong. Also, throughout the story Odysseus blames many after affects of he acts on Zeus, saying that he caused them and it was his fault. This gives evidence for Zeus's statement and allows it to hold true.
ReplyDeleteZeus is right that this falls on the faults of the mortal men, mainly Odysseus. Though gods and others push him farther and farther off course, it all began with his own mistakes. On his way home, every place that he stopped up until he is able to sit back and retell his story, her has made enemies and caused himself and his crew to be cursed. At the island of the Cyclops he was going to sail away to safety with his crew when pride caused him to yell his name back to the Cyclops. Because of this Poseidon was then able to curse him and send him even farther off course.
ReplyDeleteAs for the other places the Odysseus arrived while on his travels, whenever and wherever men were killing it was because of their mortal greed and their need to conquer. This got many of them killing in their ships by giants, some dragged away from islands because of the enticing drugs, and caused Odysseus to risk his life to save his men who were turned into swine.
As for their being blown back off course while almost reaching home by the bag of winds, which had nothing to do with the gods. That was entirely the fault of Odysseus’ men and their greed and jealousy of Odysseus and his treasure.
As for blaming the gods, Odysseus should not do that; he can only blame himself and his men. Though the gods do punish him, it is only for their own foolish actions and choices on the journey home.
In this quote Zeus states, “Ah how shameless--the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,
ReplyDeleteBut they themselves, with there own reckless ways,
Compound their pains beyond their proper share” (1.37-40). Zeus is saying that the mortals blame their wrong doings on the gods… The gods are nice enough to watch over them, although the mortals are ignorant enough to blame their “reckless ways” (1.38) on the gods; I also believe what Cory said, it is mostly Odysseus’s fault that he has been wandering for 10 years. If he had never went to fight in the war at Troy he would of never been lost. Not only has he been doing himself bad, he’s been doing his family bad… because of him wandering he leaves his wife and family alone with no protection (to the suitors).
I believe that because the people believe that good things come from the gods, they associate bad things coming from the gods too. I think that because they know the gods hold so much power, they automatically blame the gods for things that they subconciously know are not actually the gods fault. I believe that also especially because the gods are human-like and have personal interest in the people's lives, the people associate the gods with making mistakes or choices that could affect their lives. I think that one god also can mess up the good that the rest of the gods are trying to create. For example, Odysseus wanted to make it home and all of the gods wanted to help him get home except for Poseidon. Because Poseidon was so intent on Odysseus not making it home, the other gods could not bring Odysseus home when Poseidon's tricks and ways to hurt Odysseus kept getting in the way. Poseidon tries to stop Odysseus from getting home for family reasons. This can be dangerous because Odysseus was only trying to help his people, even though he used violence, and ends up hurting Poseidon, and now Poseidon is only trying to protect his family, but using violence, and ends up hurting Odysseus. The gods act just like the people do, and will do everything in their power to help and protect their families, whatever it takes. It just gets difficult because the people's actions have an affect on the gods, and the god's actions have an affect on the people, making it a scary situation that can lead to straining the relationships between people and gods.
ReplyDeleteIt is mainly Poseidon’s and the crew member's fault for Odysseus to be roaming the earth for 10 years. Poseidon has made Odysseus's life so bad because Poseidon is just mad that Odysseus killed his son, which was necessary because Poseidon’s son was about to eat Odysseus. Also, it is partially the crew member's fault because when Ithaca was in sight, they opened a bag of wind which sent them back to the island that they were previously on. Also, Calypso is a mortal who makes Odysseus stay on her island for many years. This is one of the major reasons why Odysseus has not yet returned to Ithaca. The gods are able to change what is going to happen, and mostly other than Poseidon, the gods are all on Odysseus's side. So, it has equal share of the blame between the Mortals and the Gods. However, Zeus is mostly right, because they do blame every problem on the gods, when the gods don’t really interfere, unless there is a major problem. So, blaming everything on the gods is wrong for the mortals to do, and for the most part, what Zeus is saying is true, and the mortals need to stop blaming the gods for everything that goes wrong.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I believe that nobody is at fault here. The question should not be "who's fault is it anyway," it should be "For what main reason has Odysseus been roaming for ten years?"
ReplyDeleteIn many ways, the reason for Odysseus being held back is from people not listening to each other, or just plain being stupid. Odysseus and his crew are within swimming distance from Ithaca, when they open the bag of wind, which, of course, sets them hundreds of miles off course. Anybody can tell, that was a stupid move. Furthermore, the crew is also ignores Odysseus' advice:
The wind drove me out of Ilium on to Ismarus,
the Cicones' stronghold. There i sacked the city,
killed the men, but as for the wives and plunder,
that rich haul we dragged away from the place-
we shared it round so no one, not on my account,
would go deprived of his fair share of spoils.
Then I urged them to cut and run, set sail,
but would they listen? Not those mutinous fools." -9.44-52
The crew ignoring his advice ultimately leads to the Cicones attacking him and his crew.
However, the crew is not the only ignorant ones, Odysseus also fails to listen to the crew sometimes. Later in Book 9, against the advice of his mates, Odysseus is taunting the Cyclops. On top of being a dumb idea in the first place, this leads to the cyclops throwing rocks at the ship, bringing them back to shore. But not only does he taunt the cyclops, but he reveals his true name. Of all the dumb things to do, he happens to choose one of the dumbest. This allows for Polyphemus the cyclops to pray to his father, Poseidon, that Odysseus never reaches Ithaca, and Poseidon obliges.
So, nobody is at fault here, it is just ignorant ignoring other people and those people doing stupid things that keeps Odysseus at sea.
In light of the new books of the Odyssey that we have read and our class discussions, I believe that that it is actually Zeus' fault and Odysseus' crews' fault that Odysseus has been away from home for so long. Basically, after the Trojan War, Zeus made very strong wind that set Odysseus off course. Setting him off course made him run into many different peoples and islands. That was Zeus' fault. Then, when Ithaca was in sight, when they could almost touch the land, the crew got greedy. They thought Odysseus would keep all their treasures for themselves, so they released a bag of winds which blew them ay off course and led up to the events with Polyphemus. So, when you think about all these adventures and battles and journeys on a whole, it is actually Zeus' fault.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is fair to say that the Gods in the Odyssey control most affairs in the epic, Odysseus'wandering is not one of them.
ReplyDeleteThe gods are able to control regular mortals' fates, and give them advice, such as in the case of Telemachus and Agamemnon. With all this being said, Odysseus is not portrayed as a regular mortal, but as a true hero. He is displayed as a having a true freedom of will as well as extraordinary strength, cunning and intelligence. In another heroic way, Odysseus a legacy, for people to remember him when he's dead. Unfortunately, Odysseus' obsession over reputation and legacy is what has caused his wandering.
Because he has to brag about himself, he causes himself pain. Telling Polyphemus that he was the one that blinded him was what caused Poseidon to delay Odyssues' return.
I agree with Greg. Odysseus, as well as his crew are "displayed as a having a true freedom of will as well as extraordinary strength, cunning and intelligence." Not only does he feel he needs to brag about himself, but he and the crew have gone mad with greed.
ReplyDeleteDuring a class discussion, we talked about piracy. To the Greeks, piracy was an honorable way to "make a living." Because Odysseus and the crew have been out pirating and pillaging for so long, they have gone mad with power and greed. Taking other peoples stuff feels good. If one is exposed to too much of this, they can feel omnipotent.
This brings me back to my original point in my first post. The crew feels all powerful, therefore they feel that they do not need to listen to Odysseus' advice, and vice versa with Odysseus.
This could possibly mean that Odysseus and the crew's lust for power is one of the underlying reasons they have been kept from Ithaca for the past 10 years.
I think that Zeus is right. Although Zeus and the other gods do hold a very large amount of power, they don't directly control mortals' actions. It seems that mortals blame the gods because they are too arrogant to blame themselves. They mess up, and they just can't accept the fact that they're imperfect. This also seems to show that mortals and immortals may have a sort of tense relationship. Gods are above mortals, but mortals want to be above gods.
ReplyDeleteOn the question of whose fault it is that Odysseus is wandering, I think that it's a combination of him and others. When looking at whose fault something is, it's best to look at the root of it. It is of course partially Calypso's fault for keeping him in her caves, but after that, It's really Odysseus's fault. The root of Poseidon detaining him, which at least at the moment is being voted his biggest obstacle, is him stealing Polyphemus's cheese. And even after escaping from Polyphemus's cave, he could have just left, but he just had to keep his dignity by removing his anonymity. He had to tell Polyphemus his name, thus allowing Polyphemus to tell Poseidon to ruin his life. It is also Poseidon's fault for detaining him of course, but the root of the problem is Odysseus.
Though the Gods play a large role in slowing down Odysseus's journey, I believe it's Odysseus's fault that he has been wandering for ten years. If he wouldn't have went and killed one of the God's children he wouldn't be in such a mess. Mortals create their own fate, the gods just make sure they are punished for their wrongful actions. All Odysseus had to do was not kill someone. Maybe if he would have apologized and asked for a way to make it up to the gods he wouldn't have had such an excruciating journey home and the suitors wouldn't have ruined his home and family. I feel like there were many distractions on his journey and that he had more opportunities to get back faster then he did. When he would announce to the people he was with that he was the great god like Odysseus they would be shocked. The people in The Odyssey love hearing great things about themselves. People wish to gloat about themselves. Even though I realize that Odysseus wanted to get back to his family, he should have made better decisions, or if he made the wrong ones, at least try to fix them. The gods have the ability to determine your fate, but ultimately it lies in the mortals hands.
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ReplyDeleteThese are difficult questions to answer. I think that Zeus is saying that man don't want to be held accountable for the mistakes that they've made, Instead they turn to the gods to blame. He says that humans need to learn how to take responsibility for their own actions insteadd of blaming someone else. There are indeed cases when someone does something wrong and when they're faced with the consequences, they blame the gods for putting them into the predicament. There are othe cases, however when the gods show their power by cursing a human, even when the person worships him. In this book, I believe that there are many people that could be blamed for Odysseus' long journey home. Poseidon is prolonging him from reaching home. Odysseus tries too hard to prove his glory and gets himself into trouble. His crew refuses to follow his orders, which have numerous consequences in the long run. I believe that most of the fault of Odysseus' problem goes to Poseidon. He feels the need to slow Odysseus down because he wants to please his son, Polyphemus. I think Odysseus had every right to blind Poseidon's son because it was out of self-defense. Even when Odysseus has suffered fo years, he still won't allow him to return home until he's "alone and a broken man."
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